-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
Here are the quotes of Wenger regarding the issue, managers of Arsenal. I am sure I can find Mourinho and Ferguson with similar statements.
"The championship has to be our absolute priority as you cannot make the Champions League as the priority," he insisted. He added: "If you call it the Champions League, basically you should only have the league champions there." Wenger said the Champions League, which in the days of the European Cup was restricted to the holders and the continent's national champions alone, was becoming more of a lottery than a test of excellence.
What is the priority this season for Barcelona: Champions League or Spanish title?
The Spanish league is very important to win. A club has to be great in its own country before it can attempt to win anything in Europe. For Barca five years without winning the Liga is a lot of time, so for us it is fundamental. The Champions League can depend on many things but our priority has to be the league.
"The championship has to be our absolute priority as you cannot make the> Champions League as the priority," he insisted.
yes, but if somehow you manage to win the CL anyway, surely the glory is far greater than winning the premiership.
-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
The bottom line is league title> has more trandition and prestige (well, at least for the 4 major> leagues).
Impossible. Compare the glory that Chelsea got from winning the Premiership to what Liverpool has gotten. It's not comparable. Liverpool is clearly the king of the british football roost - they've stolen all of chelsea's limelight.
"StephenJ" <c20@setyrtfj.77com> wrote in message news:Fdxle.4445$%Z2.1880@lakeread08...> > The bottom line is league title> > has more trandition and prestige (well, at least for the 4 major> > leagues).>
Impossible. Compare the glory that Chelsea got from winning the
Premiership> to what Liverpool has gotten. It's not comparable. Liverpool is clearly
king of the british football roost - they've stolen all of chelsea's> limelight.>
For a day or two. Chelsea's turn in the spotlight has lasted nine months.
Impossible. Compare the glory that Chelsea got from winning the
Premiership> to what Liverpool has gotten. It's not comparable. Liverpool is clearly
king of the british football roost - they've stolen all of chelsea's> limelight.
true, but it doesn't mean liverpool is the better team. peaking for the final rounds of the CL is important to do well in it. also participation is based on the previous year rankings in national leagues so there are surprises. Overall, I think the CL is a much bigger trophy than a league title because it means winning against the best in Europe and it is consequently much rarer. the main thing that limits its prestige, imo, is that it isn't a world title for clubs.
StephenJ wrote:>>The bottom line is league title>>has more trandition and prestige (well, at least for the 4 major>>leagues).>
Impossible. Compare the glory that Chelsea got from winning the Premiership> to what Liverpool has gotten. It's not comparable. Liverpool is clearly the> king of the british football roost - they've stolen all of chelsea's> limelight.>
What would you know about it anyway?
People who actually live in the European countries concerned have all expressed the same view - the opinion of those who are actually football fans (note, football, not "soccer") should count for more than that of some guy sitting in the US watching the odd match on TV.
Stick to commenting about sports you know something about ...
"StephenJ" <c20@setyrtfj.77com> wrote in message news:jEtle.4429$%Z2.2835@lakeread08...> > "The championship has to be our absolute priority as you cannot make the> > Champions League as the priority," he insisted.>
yes, but if somehow you manage to win the CL anyway, surely the glory is
greater than winning the premiership.
of course. they can't make the CL a priority because the odds are low even for the best (see Milan or barca or chelsea). anyway winning big in the CL implies doing well in national leagues.
Here are the quotes of Wenger regarding the issue, managers of Arsenal. I> am sure I can find Mourinho and Ferguson with similar statements.>
"The championship has to be our absolute priority as you cannot make the> Champions League as the priority," he insisted.
No wonder Wenger downplays the Champions League, Arsenal have won championships but have always failed miserably in the UCL.
He added: "If you call it the Champions League, basically you should only> have the league champions there."> Wenger said the Champions League, which in the days of the European Cup was> restricted to the holders and the continent's national champions alone, was> becoming more of a lottery than a test of excellence.
What a stupid comment. Winning the Champions' cup back in the old days was much easier as the competition was not as wide and qualified as it is now. wenger knows it and realizes that the new format reduces Arsenal's chances to zero...
true, but it doesn't mean liverpool is the better team. peaking for the> final rounds of the CL is important to do well in it. also participation
based on the previous year rankings in national leagues so there are> surprises. Overall, I think the CL is a much bigger trophy than a league> title because it means winning against the best in Europe and it is> consequently much rarer. the main thing that limits its prestige, imo, is> that it isn't a world title for clubs.
The bottom line is league title is much more difficult to win
if it's so much more difficult to win, how come Man U and Arsenal have about 11 league titles between them the past 15 years and 1 CL title...................?
In that case you might take Masters over Australian Open regardless of> prestige.
No, it seems like much of the pro-premiership argument (from not just you but others) has been along the lines of "the premiership is much harder to win because it's 38 game season and you can't get a fluke", etc.
That makes little sense since we have the glaringly obvious fact that Man U and Arsenal have been able to rack up premierships by the fistful the past decade but have combined to win a grand total of 1 CL titles, and that one by the skin of MU's teeth.
Plus, the celebrations of the past couple days make clear which title is more prestigious. I can't imagine Liverpool players or its fans being this bonkers over a Premiership title. They got calls from the PM and Queen congratulating them, etc.
so Arsenal (who are far> superior, judging by the league table) definitely have more than a ZERO> chance of winning it.
I concede it might be 0,1% Arsenal's shortcomings in Europe are legendary, they were supposed to be one of the best squads around Europe and what's their best showing? A quarterfinal? Pathetic...
The bottom line is league title is much more difficult to win AND it> has more trandition and prestige (well, at least for the 4 major> leagues).
in nfl football, team might go 15-1 during season, and another goes 10-6..but if the 10-6 team then wins next 3 playoff games (hence super bowl), they had the better yr, more glory, etc...
cannot this same logic be applied to champions league vs premier (or other national) leagues? i.e. anybody would say that 1st goal is to win division, but after that, w/out that, you don't get chance to move onward....
"StephenJ" <c20@setyrtfj.77com> wrote in message news:fNGle.4473$%Z2.3723@lakeread08...>
In that case you might take Masters over Australian Open regardless of>> prestige.>
No, it seems like much of the pro-premiership argument (from not just you> but others) has been along the lines of "the premiership is much harder to> win because it's 38 game season and you can't get a fluke", etc.>
That makes little sense since we have the glaringly obvious fact that Man > U> and Arsenal have been able to rack up premierships by the fistful the past> decade but have combined to win a grand total of 1 CL titles, and that one> by the skin of MU's teeth.>
Plus, the celebrations of the past couple days make clear which title is> more prestigious. I can't imagine Liverpool players or its fans being this> bonkers over a Premiership title. They got calls from the PM and Queen> congratulating them, etc.>
League format rewards consistency. Knockout format rewards peak> performance at certain matches.>
Also tells us which team is able to get into position to play their best at critical moments - ie turn it on and win at will - the true defn' of a champion.
'Rewarding consistency' is admirable & nice, but there is much consistency (humdrum?) in our daily lives - we want to see the flashes of brilliance/genius - that's worth cheering/bandwidth....
'Rewarding consistency' is admirable & nice, but there is much> consistency (humdrum?) in our daily lives - we want to see the flashes> of brilliance/genius - that's worth cheering/bandwidth....
That makes little sense since we have the glaringly obvious fact that
Man U> > and Arsenal have been able to rack up premierships by the fistful the past> > decade but have combined to win a grand total of 1 CL titles, and that
by the skin of MU's teeth.
It's from a lesser teams' perpectives. For teams like Everton and> Liverpool Premiership is much harder to win, because they don't have> the depth and consistency to compete with the top teams day in day out,> whereas a few lucky breaks here and there and you win your CL.
Lesser teams don't tend to win much of anything, so the relevant issue is how tough it is for good teams to win. Man U and Arsenal have about 10 premierships and 8 FA cups between them the past 12 or so years and 1 CL title. Guess they just haven't been lucky..........................................?
-->> "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning,>> the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands>> of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form>> they please".>>
- Thomas Jefferson>
It might prove it if the team that won the CL was also the best team in> their own league i.e had won the EPL.>
Think of it as a two-year revolving season. Liverpool snuck into the play-offs in fourth place, much as you can in American basketball or football or wahatever. Then they won the playoffs. That's the way it goes. Sometimes the division champions in regular season don't win the super bowl.
Plus, the celebrations of the past couple days make clear which title is> more prestigious. I can't imagine Liverpool players or its fans being this> bonkers over a Premiership title.
Only because it has been obvious for months that Chelsea would win the title while the Liverpool victory came down to one match. Notice how tennis players generaly celebrate more when they win 9-7 in the 5th set rather then 6-2 6-3 6-2. Also Liverpool is a far bigger club then Chelsea so its not surprising they have more fans who show up for the parade.
They got calls from the PM and Queen> congratulating them, etc.
Who cares about them. What matters are the fans, managers and players and they would all choose the league, that is what determines value of competitions.
Lesser teams don't tend to win much of anything, so the relevant issue is> how tough it is for good teams to win. Man U and Arsenal have about 10> premierships and 8 FA cups between them the past 12 or so years and 1 CL> title.
ManU/Arsenal dominating the premiership proves the best teams always win there hence it is a test of skill and far more difficult to win, the fact that teams such as Liverpool, Porto and Monaco do well at CL while OBVIOUSLY not being superior to teams such as Barcelona, Chelsea etc proves that mediocre teams can win these comps with a bit of luck.
Federer has dominated Wimbledon the past few years while having a shocking record in cincinatti, does that mean cincy is tougher for good players to win?
I concede it might be 0,1%> Arsenal's shortcomings in Europe are legendary, they were supposed to be> one of the best squads around Europe and what's their best showing? A> quarterfinal? Pathetic...
Yet they are still regarded as one of the biggest clubs worldwide and most players dream of playing there.
Plus, the celebrations of the past couple days make clear which title is> > more prestigious. I can't imagine Liverpool players or its fans being
this> > bonkers over a Premiership title.>
Only because it has been obvious for months that Chelsea would win the
title
? They were only a couple slip-ups ahead of arsenal, and they hadn't won a title in decades. We should have expected bonkers................
They got calls from the PM and Queen> > congratulating them, etc.>
Who cares about them.
Surely they help us understand which is more prestigious....
What matters are the fans, managers and players and> they would all choose the league, that is what determines value of> competitions.
.. and all the objective indicators say it's the CL.
-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
Lesser teams don't tend to win much of anything, so the relevant issue
how tough it is for good teams to win. Man U and Arsenal have about 10> > premierships and 8 FA cups between them the past 12 or so years and 1 CL> > title.>
ManU/Arsenal dominating the premiership proves the best teams always win> there hence it is a test of skill and far more difficult to win
? Everyone thought Arsenal was superior to MU in 2002-2003, but Arsenal got a couple bad breaks the last month and lost it.
Looking back at the Premiership table for the past 10 years, i see about 4 times when the title was decided by a single point. Stuff like 79-78. Are you seriously going to say that we know that the team that got 79 points was best? That one point could be the result of pure fluke.
And you can't dispute the fact that the CL has been far more difficult to win for MU and Arsenal than the PM and FA cup have been. Just look at the results..........
the fact> that teams such as Liverpool, Porto and Monaco do well at CL while
OBVIOUSLY> not being superior to teams such as Barcelona, Chelsea etc proves that> mediocre teams can win these comps with a bit of luck.
LOL. Look at the winners list for the CL over the past 15 years and the list of Premiership winners. Which list has better teams............?
Federer has dominated Wimbledon the past few years while having a shocking>record in cincinatti, does that mean cincy is tougher for good players to>win?
Do a million people come out to celebrate a win at Cincinnatti?
-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
? They were only a couple slip-ups ahead of arsenal, and they hadn't won a> title in decades. We should have expected bonkers................
150000 turned up when it became "official" that they would win even though they were all but mathemtically Champions for weeks, if not months.
Surely they help us understand which is more prestigious....
Since when does the old queen determine prestige?
.. and all the objective indicators say it's the CL.
You havent provided any evidence. Here is some more:
Last year Chelseas manager Ranieri was fired when it became obvious Chelsea wouldnt catch Arsenal for the league title. This happened while Chelsea was still alive and in the semis of the Champions league, after beating Arsenal in the QF LOL.
Looking back at the Premiership table for the past 10 years, i see about 4> times when the title was decided by a single point. Stuff like 79-78. Are> you seriously going to say that we know that the team that got 79 points
best? That one point could be the result of pure fluke.
Far more flukes happen in knockout competitions. Many matches are decided by penalty shootouts or by mediocre teams grabbing a lucky goal and then defending for 90 minutes. When someone wins the league title by a point, of course it could have went either way, however it is obvious they were the 2 standout teams over the season. I dont think you will find anyone on the planet who thinks Liverpool/Milan are the 2 best teams in Europe.
And you can't dispute the fact that the CL has been far more difficult to> win for MU and Arsenal than the PM and FA cup have been. Just look at the> results..........
What makes MU and Arsenal special? What about teams in other leagues who have a superior record in Europe then in their domestic league?
LOL. Look at the winners list for the CL over the past 15 years and the
list> of Premiership winners. Which list has better teams............?
The best team in the world rarely wins the CL however almost always wins their domestic league. Does that mean CL is tougher to win? No just that it relies more on luck, draw and other factors then on pure skill.
Do a million people come out to celebrate a win at Cincinnatti?
You dont know how many people would party in the streets if Liverpool won the league on the last day of the season after coming back from 3-0 down so how can you use that as evidence?
"Googles" <bleh> wrote in message news:42986dcd$0$29590$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...>
? They were only a couple slip-ups ahead of arsenal, and they hadn't won
title in decades. We should have expected bonkers................>
150000 turned up when it became "official" that they would win even though> they were all but mathemtically Champions for weeks, if not months.>
Surely they help us understand which is more prestigious....>
Since when does the old queen determine prestige?>
.. and all the objective indicators say it's the CL.>
You havent provided any evidence. Here is some more:>
Last year Chelseas manager Ranieri was fired when it became obvious
Chelsea> wouldnt catch Arsenal for the league title. This happened while Chelsea
still alive and in the semis of the Champions league, after beating
Arsenal> in the QF LOL.>
And Liverpool are going to have a mass clearout in the summer, with as many as 6 of the Champions League winning team on their way, to strengthen the team for a Premiership challenge.
? They were only a couple slip-ups ahead of arsenal, and they hadn't won
title in decades. We should have expected bonkers................>
150000 turned up when it became "official" that they would win even though> they were all but mathemtically Champions for weeks, if not months.
That's not close to a million..............
Surely they help us understand which is more prestigious....>
Since when does the old queen determine prestige?
Since................ forever?
.. and all the objective indicators say it's the CL.>
You havent provided any evidence. Here is some more:
Amount of media coverage is surely a huge indicator. You haven't provided any evidence beyond "IMO all the fans and players think so".
Last year Chelseas manager Ranieri was fired when it became obvious
Chelsea> wouldnt catch Arsenal for the league title. This happened while Chelsea
still alive and in the semis of the Champions league, after beating
Arsenal> in the QF LOL.
WTF? Ranieri was fired on May 31, two weeks after the Premiership season ended, and a week after the European Cup title game.
Btw, who replaced him as Chelsea manager? Jose Mourinho. And what had this guy just done? Led FC Porto to the.......... European Cup title!
ROFL!
-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
Looking back at the Premiership table for the past 10 years, i see about
times when the title was decided by a single point. Stuff like 79-78.
you seriously going to say that we know that the team that got 79 points> was> > best? That one point could be the result of pure fluke.>
Far more flukes happen in knockout competitions.
3/10 is a lot of fluke........ when i look at the CL winners list, i see lots of ac milan, real madrid, juventus, barcelona, bayern.......... mostly just top-shelf names.
Many matches are decided by> penalty shootouts or by mediocre teams grabbing a lucky goal and then> defending for 90 minutes. When someone wins the league title by a point,
course it could have went either way,
well there you go. So much for definitively proving who was best every year.
And you can't dispute the fact that the CL has been far more difficult
win for MU and Arsenal than the PM and FA cup have been. Just look at
results..........>
What makes MU and Arsenal special? What about teams in other leagues who> have a superior record in Europe then in their domestic league?
It means that MU and Arsenal aren't as good as their PM titles indicate. They are lucky to win all those cups because they don't have to face milan//real madrid types in league play.............
In that sense, we can call every premiership title a fluke - a fluke of geography that keeps better clubs out.
LOL. Look at the winners list for the CL over the past 15 years and the> list> > of Premiership winners. Which list has better teams............?>
The best team in the world rarely wins the CL however almost always wins> their domestic league.
No, we've already established that league titles are often decided within the margin of a single game or two.
Do a million people come out to celebrate a win at Cincinnatti?>
You dont know how many people would party in the streets if Liverpool won> the league on the last day of the season after coming back from 3-0 down
how can you use that as evidence?
We know it wouldn't be any more than showed up to party after the CL win. That pretty much emptied the streets. I doubt they'd get a call from the PM and Queen either...........
3/10 is a lot of fluke........ when i look at the CL winners list, i see> lots of ac milan, real madrid, juventus, barcelona, bayern..........
mostly> just top-shelf names.
Along with a few flukes along the way (liverpool, porto etc) When is the last time a mediocre team fluked the premiership?
And you can't dispute the fact that the CL has been far more difficult> to> > > win for MU and Arsenal than the PM and FA cup have been. Just look at> the> > > results..........
The question is what the clubs would prefer to win. Wenger has failed miserably in Europe while having a world class squad, you would think he would be fired as manager rather then be treated as a legend.
It means that MU and Arsenal aren't as good as their PM titles indicate.> They are lucky to win all those cups because they don't have to face> milan//real madrid types in league play.............
So Liverpool are better then Arsenal?
No, we've already established that league titles are often decided within> the margin of a single game or two.
Only when the 2/3 best teams are evenly matched. When there is a clear top team, they win (Chelsea) yet can get knocked out by a mediocre Liverpool team due to luck.
We know it wouldn't be any more than showed up to party after the CL win.
We dont know because it hasnt happened.
That pretty much emptied the streets. I doubt they'd get a call from the
and Queen either...........
The queen call is not as special as you think, she called Henman after he won the Paris TMS
3/10 is a lot of fluke........ when i look at the CL winners list, i see> > lots of ac milan, real madrid, juventus, barcelona, bayern..........> mostly> > just top-shelf names.>
Along with a few flukes along the way (liverpool, porto etc) When is the> last time a mediocre team fluked the premiership?
Every year, since they don't face top competition from other leagues...............?
And you can't dispute the fact that the CL has been far more
difficult> > to> > > > win for MU and Arsenal than the PM and FA cup have been. Just look
results..........>
The question is what the clubs would prefer to win. Wenger has failed> miserably in Europe while having a world class squad, you would think he> would be fired as manager rather then be treated as a legend.
You have to be realistic. Arsenal winning Premierships and FA Cups is a big step up from winning nothing..............................
It means that MU and Arsenal aren't as good as their PM titles indicate.> > They are lucky to win all those cups because they don't have to face> > milan//real madrid types in league play.............>
So Liverpool are better then Arsenal?
This year. They won the bigger title.
No, we've already established that league titles are often decided
within> > the margin of a single game or two.>
Only when the 2/3 best teams are evenly matched.
... which seems to happen pretty frequently.............
Along with a few flukes along the way (liverpool, porto etc) When is
last time a mediocre team fluked the premiership?> >
Every year, since they don't face top competition from other> > leagues...............?
Think about this carefully and you'll realise how silly this comment> is: it's like saying that Federer has fluked all his slams because he> didn't have to face all the other greats from different eras.
How can you say something so dumb and yet call me silly?
Once again, you're confusing the prestige that comes with winning the> CL with actual ability.
Not really. I've claimed all along that the CL is more prestigious - that it's the bigger title. We can argue over who has "more ability" all we want, though i bet if we compared the CL winner to the Premiership winner the past 15 years we'd say the CL winner was better more times than not.........................
The CL does not ensure that the eventual winner is the> team with the most ability- too many othe variables involved in the> structure of the competition.
Yes, the CL is flawed - it should only include this year's league winners. Still, it's the bigger title, and we all know leagues can and often are won by fluke too...................
Yes, the CL is flawed - it should only include this year's league
winners.> > Still, it's the bigger title, and we all know leagues can and often are
by fluke too...................>
Leagues are much less frequently won by luck than a cup competiton like> the CL. Think of all the luck involved in Liverpool's CL win this year:>
1. Struggling in final group stage match against Olympiakos, needed a> huge effort to ge through.> 2. Marginally got through against Juventus> 3. In second leg against Chelsea, they had a goal awarded that was very> questionable.
Where's the luck? Close calls factor into every game.
Look at how often the league is won by a point or two.................
However, where you go wrong is in equating the CL's> prestige with who is actually the best team.
I don't really care about "best team". We can never know for sure who the best team is, and any format - league or tourney- can produce a lucky champ. FWIW, i'd bet the CL champ is a better team than the Premiership champ 4 years out of 5. But the CL is more prestigious, whether Googles likes it or not...............................
Where's the luck? Close calls factor into every game.>
Having a non-goal awarded as a goal? Winning a penalty shoot-out in the> final after being 3-0 down at half-time?
bad calls are a part of every game... coming back from 3-0 down is awesome football.
Look at how often the league is won by a point or two.................>
Yes, but there's no doubt that a 'fluke' league win is much less likely> to occur then a 'fluke' cup win.
How so? Look at the CL winners. Usually it's a top team, arguably the best, just as the Premier winner is usually a top team, arguably the best...................
OK, I'll admit that Liverpool are, as a result of their CL win, the> most prestigous team in Europe, if you'll admit that they are not the> best team in Europe in terms of actual ability.
How so? Look at the CL winners. Usually it's a top team, arguably the
best,> > just as the Premier winner is usually a top team, arguably the> > best...................>
Liverpool and FC Porto are not arguably the best teams in Europe.
look at the winners of CL over the past 15 yrs and the winners of Premiership the last 15 years and tell me which list has the better teams..............
Liverpool and FC Porto are not arguably the best teams in Europe.> >
look at the winners of CL over the past 15 yrs and the winners of> > Premiership the last 15 years and tell me which list has the better> > teams..............>
There are many teams in the EPL that are not allowed to compete in the> CL, hence why it is called the English league, and why there are more> great teams winning the CL than the EPL.
That clinches is, then. It explains why the CL is more prestigious than the EPL title. You have to beat out better competition. Not just Arsenal and MU, but Bayern, Real, Juventus, Barcelona, Ajax, Porto, etc..............................
Cup competitions like the CL have more scope for fluke wins than league> formats- just look at Greece winning Euro 2004. Do you think they would> have won it in a league format?
Irrelevant, since if they didn't that could just tell us that the league rewards long-run consistency and the luck of avoiding injuries, etc. A legit tourney like that is a great way to decide a title. It forces teams to play well under pressure. No room for error like long league play.............
Irrelevant, since if they didn't that could just tell us that the league> > rewards long-run consistency and the luck of avoiding injuries>
So Liverpool finished 30 plus points behind Chelsea, not because they> are not as good as Chelsea, but because they were unlucky with> injuries, right?
Who knows? Look at Arsenal. Why did they lose the EPM to Chelsea? They lost a couple matches to really bad teams.
I guess if one of those matches had occurred in the FA Cup competition instead of the league, you'd say "see, Cup play can produce flukes like this".......... But of course the FA Cup winner is invariably a top team - Arsenal, M United, etc.
-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
Who knows? Look at Arsenal. Why did they lose the EPM to Chelsea? They
lost> > a couple matches to really bad teams.>
They only bad teams Arsenal lost to was Bolton and Birmingham (they> lost five games in total, the other three were against Liverpool and> Man u- twice, not bad teams), Arsenal's problem was they actually drew> too many games to bad teams (W Brom, C Palace and Southampton), as well> as losing twice to Man U.
Point is, it's often "bad" results - losses or ties vs. "clearly inferior" teams - that separate the EPM winner from the 2nd place team. Exactly the kind of results you call "fluke" when they occur in a tournament.................
-- "if federal judges have the final word over its meaning, the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please".
