"Richard" <rh7609@columbus.rr.com> escreveu na mensagem news:rh7609-48BAB4.16351915042005@news-rdr-01.ohiordc.rr.com...> what is the 'pays de galles' in english?
Well, I don't speak French, but that's a lot like the Portuguese for "Wales" (País de Gales)...
Victoria Barrett 16 April 2005 05:44:19 [ permanent link ]
On 15 Apr 2005 16:30:49 -0700, wanyikuli@gmail.com wrote:>Just Galles in Italian though. No "Paese" (the equivalent of Pais/Pays>in Portugues/French).
N.B.:
In French, as in other languages, the Prince of Wales is Le Prince de Galles, not Le Prince de Pays Galles.
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:55:39 GMT, paul@SPAMthersgb.net (Paul C) wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:53:49 -0600, MH><nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:>
Richard wrote:>>> what is the 'pays de galles' in english?>>>
Wales.>
which in turn comes from the same Latin root which appears in>'Walloon' and 'Cornwall', meaning foreigner (after the Volcae tribe of>N Italy).
Show up in Irish too, Gall = foreigner. I believe in Scots Gaelic it means someone from the Lowlands or an Englishman.
Irish place names it appears in: Galway......... Gallimh (town of the foreigners). Donegal ...... Dún na nGall (fort of the foreigner). Fingal........ Fionn Gall (the fairharied foreigner.. Viking)
Surnames: Gallagher..... Ó Gallcobhair (someone who helped the foreigners) Doyle..... Ó Dubh Ghall (the dark/black foreigner)
Victoria Barrett 16 April 2005 08:09:10 [ permanent link ]
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:43:33 -0500, MMcC <inis@earthlings.com> wrote:>Show up in Irish too, Gall = foreigner. >I believe in Scots Gaelic it means someone from the Lowlands or an>Englishman.
I'm sure someone has mentioned and everyone knows anyway, that Gaul is the old Latin name for modern-day France. Was there ever a more appositely named leader than General Charles de Gaulle?
"The name Wales has been given to this country not by its inhabitants but by the Teutonic occupiers of England, and means "the territory of the alien race". "Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of the Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German term for Italy.
(Whoa! Italy...)
After an invasion lasting 330 years, the Anglican, Saxon, and Jutish "comelings" having driven the earlier "homelings" into the hill-country of the west by steady encroachments and spasmodic conquests, the names Wales and Welsh were applied to the ancient people and the land they retained. Wales is in French, Pays de Galles, from Latin Gallus, Low Latin Wallia. In the Middle Ages the Welsh coined in their own tongue a name of similar origin for their country, when, in poetry only, they termed it Gwalia."
Irish place names it appears in:>Galway......... Gallimh (town of the foreigners).>Donegal ...... Dún na nGall (fort of the foreigner).>Fingal........ Fionn Gall (the fairharied foreigner.. Viking)
Wow. Fantastic.
Some names derived from Wales in English are of course, Wallace, Wallis, Welsh, Walsh. And anything with Gall in it, in the original.
Surnames:>Gallagher..... Ó Gallcobhair (someone who helped the foreigners)>Doyle..... Ó Dubh Ghall (the dark/black foreigner)
As in brunette, presumably. Although who knows if some Moors made it to the hinterlands of ancient Ireland. (I recall a thread many years ago here, when I mentioned that though no one knows where the Celtic tribes originated, one theory advanced was that they are an ancient peoples from North Africa)
Didn't know is was of Latin origin though.
Nor I. I thought it was Celtic all the way. What a fascinating thread.
"The name Wales has been given to this country not by its inhabitants> but by the Teutonic occupiers of England, and means "the territory of> the alien race". "Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either> Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of the> Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German term for> Italy. >
Italy is "Wlochy" in Polish (the l has a stripe across).
Philip Lennox Beineke 16 April 2005 08:20:03 [ permanent link ]
MMcC <inis@earthlings.com> wrote:>paul@SPAMthersgb.net (Paul C) wrote:>>>Wales.>>
which in turn comes from the same Latin root which appears in>>'Walloon' and 'Cornwall', meaning foreigner (after the Volcae tribe of>>N Italy).>
Irish place names it appears in:>Galway......... Gallimh (town of the foreigners).>Donegal ...... Dún na nGall (fort of the foreigner).>Fingal........ Fionn Gall (the fairharied foreigner.. Viking)
California place names it appears in: Walnut Creek (creek of the nutty foreigner)
... wonder if Colin Morris will read this thread.
Quoting wanyikuli@gmail.com in rec.sport.soccer:><< Well, I don't speak French, but that's a lot like the>Portuguese for "Wales" (PaÃs de Gales)...>>>
Just Galles in Italian though. No "Paese" (the equivalent of Pais/Pays>in Portugues/French).
It's "Wales" in Swedish. And, interestingly, everybody uses (a close approximation of) the English pronounciation. We don't say va-less ("va" as in "va" in "vast"), which would be the expected pronounciation.
-- All that we see, or seem, is but a dream, within a dream, installed by the Machine
Matthias Mühlich 16 April 2005 14:34:39 [ permanent link ]
[Wales] In German: Wales, with English pronounciation.
"Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either> Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of the> Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German term for> Italy.
True, but you only find "Wälsch-" or "Welsch-" in pre-WorldWar-II texts (often with some slightly despising attitude towards France/Italy) and I bet that 99% of the Germans at my age (31) would not understand it.
[Wales]> In German: Wales, with English pronounciation.>
"Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either> > Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of the> > Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German term for> > Italy.
I never saw it with ä, only with e.
True, but you only find "Wälsch-" or "Welsch-" in pre-WorldWar-II texts> (often with some slightly despising attitude towards France/Italy) and> I bet that 99% of the Germans at my age (31) would not understand it.
Yep. The only term that still finds use today is 'Kauderwelsch' which means something like 'incromprehensible language' (the term has interesting roots itself).
Victoria Barrett 16 April 2005 20:46:47 [ permanent link ]
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:02:10 GMT, paul@SPAMthersgb.net (Paul C) wrote:
.....and Walachia, too.
Only in Romanian, Walachia is known as Muntenia.
But interestingly, they are one of the many countries who have a baseball/rounders type native game, and of course, their native music includes bagpipes.
Victoria Barrett 16 April 2005 20:49:09 [ permanent link ]
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:34:39 +0200, Matthias Mühlich <muehlich@iap.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:>[Wales]>In German: Wales, with English pronounciation.>
"Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either>> Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of the>> Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German term for>> Italy.>
True,
I almost wrote last night, "a thread where Matthias Mühlich will be all over".
but you only find "Wälsch-" or "Welsch-" in pre-WorldWar-II texts>(often with some slightly despising attitude towards France/Italy) and>I bet that 99% of the Germans at my age (31) would not understand it.
Indeed, Matthias, but that's why they mention on top "obsolescent" (obsolete).
Alba/Albion/Albany are all names for Scotland, but poetic. Caledonia is likewise, but historical too.
Werner Pichler 16 April 2005 20:53:57 [ permanent link ]
Sven Mischkies wrote:> Matthias Mühlich <muehlich@iap.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:>
[Wales]>> In German: Wales, with English pronounciation.>>
"Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either>>> Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of>>> the Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German>>> term for Italy.>
I never saw it with ä, only with e.>
True, but you only find "Wälsch-" or "Welsch-" in pre-WorldWar-II>> texts (often with some slightly despising attitude towards>> France/Italy) and I bet that 99% of the Germans at my age (31) would>> not understand it.>
Yep. The only term that still finds use today is 'Kauderwelsch' which> means something like 'incromprehensible language' (the term has> interesting roots itself).
Coming from "Churer Welsch", i.e. the incomprehensible language of the Romantsch people in the Graubünden valleys.
Also, pre-1914 Tyrol consisted of "Deutschtirol" (today's North and South Tyrols) and "Welschtirol", i.e. Trentino. I think the German Swiss still call the French part of their country "Welschland", but don't take my word on this.
Don't forget the Welschriesling (Italian Riesling / Riesling Italico) either.
The root also manifests itself in the names of Wallonie (Belgium) and Valachia (Romania).
Werner Pichler 16 April 2005 20:56:21 [ permanent link ]
James Allnutt wrote:> Victoria Barrett wrote:>
"The name Wales has been given to this country not by its inhabitants>> but by the Teutonic occupiers of England, and means "the territory of>> the alien race". "Welsh" (German Wälsch) implies a people of either>> Latin or Celtic origin living in a land near or adjoining that of the>> Teutons; thus Wälschland is an obsolescent, poetical German term for>> Italy.>>
Italy is "Wlochy" in Polish (the l has a stripe across).
And in Hungarian it's Olaszország (ország = country), olasz being essentially the same as "welsch"/"welsh".
I didn't get this post by James...I hope my 10 Euro p.a. newsreader isn't acting up.
Italy is "Wlochy" in Polish (the l has a stripe across).
Interesting. I seem to remember a Renaud Dreyer post about country names (albeit about Germany, I think) which touched on how countries get "stuck" with certain terms, depending on which idea or people was most known to them. Tedesco, etc.
And in Hungarian it's Olaszország (ország = country), olasz being essentially>the same as "welsch"/"welsh".
Wow. So far, variants for the root of Welsh appear in connexion in such disparate peoples as Italians, Poles, and Romanians.
Sven Mischkies 16 April 2005 22:23:34 [ permanent link ]
<wanyikuli@gmail.com> wrote:
I just looove these cultural discussions. On the Romanian note,> interesting how it is often the most 'weird' of the Romance languages.> In fact, looking at the map, I wonder how it 'got there'. They should> be speaking Greek or Russian, I do not get how their langauge is Latin> based.
By Rome, of course? The Dacians fought a long time against Rome until IIRC Traianus (or was it Hadrianus?) defeated them. Just as the people in nowadays Spain and France - being tribal societies before - they made the language of civilisation their own. To this day Romanians take pride in this legacy - at least that's the impression I got at Uni from a Romanian historian. ;)
The Greek hat their own culture and civilisation back then (which in fact was copied to a large extent and partly admired by Rome), so they had no reason to take over Latin, the same goes for the countries around the eastern Mediterranean Sea and those south of it. Of course people without the bounds of the Roman Empire kept their languages, therefore Germanic and Slavic languages are relatively different to the Romance ones.
Just my 2 cts.
Can't you go to Italy or Spain for a semester or two?
Victoria Barrett wrote:> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:43:33 -0500, MMcC <inis@earthlings.com> wrote:>
Show up in Irish too, Gall = foreigner. >>I believe in Scots Gaelic it means someone from the Lowlands or an>>Englishman.>
I'm sure someone has mentioned and everyone knows anyway, that Gaul is> the old Latin name for modern-day France.
Well, not exactly. "Gaul" included Northern Italy as well (cis-alpine Gaul) and the term was used generically to describe people (celts) from a much larger geographic region than modern France.
Paul C wrote:> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:53:49 -0600, MH> <nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:>
Richard wrote:>>
what is the 'pays de galles' in english?>>>
Wales.>
which in turn comes from the same Latin root which appears in> 'Walloon' and 'Cornwall', meaning foreigner (after the Volcae tribe of> N Italy).>
Maybe one of our Germans our Swiss can answer this, but I believe German for a Welshman is "Walliser". But doesn't that term also describe (In German) someone from the Swiss canton of Vaud (Wallis in German). Is there any connection ?
"MH" <nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message news:4263DF7D.9000801@ucalgary.ca...>
Well, not exactly. "Gaul" included Northern Italy as well (cis-alpine > Gaul) and the term was used generically to describe people (celts) from a > much larger geographic region than modern France.
"Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quorum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertia qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur"
... or something like that
Then of course there's a little village on the coasts of Armorica...
MH wrote:> Paul C wrote:>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:53:49 -0600, MH>> <nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:>>
Richard wrote:>>>
what is the 'pays de galles' in english?>>>>
Wales.>>
which in turn comes from the same Latin root which appears in>> 'Walloon' and 'Cornwall', meaning foreigner (after the Volcae tribe of>> N Italy).>
Maybe one of our Germans our Swiss can answer this, but I believe German > for a Welshman is "Walliser". But doesn't that term also describe (In > German) someone from the Swiss canton of Vaud (Wallis in German). Is > there any connection ?
Well I'm not from the german part of Switzerland but "Walliser" in German describe someone from the mountainous canton of "Valais" (or Wallis in German). I don't know if there any connection though...
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:53:49 -0600, MH>>> <nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:>>>
Richard wrote:>>>>
what is the 'pays de galles' in english?>>>>>
Wales.>>>
which in turn comes from the same Latin root which appears in>>> 'Walloon' and 'Cornwall', meaning foreigner (after the Volcae tribe of>>> N Italy).>>
Maybe one of our Germans our Swiss can answer this, but I believe >> German for a Welshman is "Walliser". But doesn't that term also >> describe (In German) someone from the Swiss canton of Vaud (Wallis in >> German). Is there any connection ?>
Well I'm not from the german part of Switzerland but "Walliser" in > German describe someone from the mountainous canton of "Valais" (or > Wallis in German).
My mistake, you are right, it is not Vaud, but Valais that I meant.
Werner Pichler 19 April 2005 00:52:13 [ permanent link ]
MH wrote:> Paul C wrote:>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:53:49 -0600, MH>> <nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:>>
Richard wrote:>>>
what is the 'pays de galles' in english?>>>>
Wales.>>
which in turn comes from the same Latin root which appears in>> 'Walloon' and 'Cornwall', meaning foreigner (after the Volcae tribe>> of N Italy).>>
Maybe one of our Germans our Swiss can answer this, but I believe> German for a Welshman is "Walliser".
"Waliser", but close enough. The country itself is just "Wales" though, English pronunciation.
But doesn't that term also describe (In German) someone from the Swiss> canton of Vaud
Valais. Vaud is Waadt in German.
(Wallis in German). Is there any connection ?
They are called "Walser". The name is also common in place names all over the Alpine region since the good people of Wallis settled quite a few remote valleys all over the Alps (cf. Großes/Kleines Walsertal in Vorarlberg, Austria)
I also thought at first that there was a connection but apparently not. Wallis seems to come quite literally from Latin vallis = valley. The Rhone valley is big enough to warrant the generic name, besides the Walser (those from the upper reaches of the valley) are German speaking (or kind of German, it's not called "Highest Alemannic" for nothing) which doesn't fit into the Romanic/Celtic pattern of the *wal root.
* Galicia in Western Europe, an Atlantic Ocean region in Spain. * Galicia in Central Europe, a historical region which is currently divided between Poland and Ukraine.
See also ... # Gaul in France, Belgium and northern Italy # Galatia in Turkey # Galati (county) in Romania
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:57:30 +0200, "Futbolmetrix" <futbolmetrix@yahoo.com> wrote:
"MH" <nopinkstuffakaspam@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message >news:4263DF7D.9000801@ucalgary.ca...>>
Well, not exactly. "Gaul" included Northern Italy as well (cis-alpine >> Gaul) and the term was used generically to describe people (celts) from a >> much larger geographic region than modern France.>
"Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quorum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam >Aquitani, tertia qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur">
... or something like that>
Then of course there's a little village on the coasts of Armorica...>
Daniele>
Daniele, I see that you are very sharp with your readings . Great cartoon isn it?
Victoria Barrett 20 April 2005 21:27:20 [ permanent link ]
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:10:16 GMT, shussbar@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Daniele, I see that you are very sharp with your readings . Great>cartoon isn it?
I don't think I've ever sat down and read a whole comics in my life, but oddly, the first museum I went to in Brussels, was the Comics Museum. It was great! As you can imagine, lots of Tintin.
But tonnes of Asterix too, which of all the comics out there, I have actually at least perused.
I don't know why I am not a comic book/serialised story/manga reader. Both my parents were in their childhood.
Has anyone seen the "Benigni" Asterix film? I was a big fan of Robertino, but somehow he's worn thin on me since Il Mostro.
* Galicia in Western Europe, an Atlantic Ocean region in Spain.> * Galicia in Central Europe, a historical region which is currently> divided between Poland and Ukraine.>
See also> ...> # Gaul in France, Belgium and northern Italy> # Galatia in Turkey> # Galati (county) in Romania
Thanks for the link. I was aware that much of the Iberian peninusla was settled by celts before imperial Rome but not about part of Turkey and Romania. It is not too surprising I suspect.
