"David Bruce Murray" wrote in message news:lo6dnQ_oTedfBhbcRVn-iA@pghconnect.com...>
"Ed Rock"
wrote in message> newsine.LNX.4.44.0411041414020.4519-100000@ias.ga.unc.edu...> > And I can't apologize for expressing my views. I consider it a moral
To put a finer point on my previous post, I think it's an easy cop out for one side to say the other is just stupid and doesn't know really why they are voting the way they do. Taking that position means you don't have to consider the possibility that you might be the one who is wrong.
However, when conservatives and liberals can talk with each on a civil and rational level, they might actually find some common ground.
There's always going to be some ovely biased venting by the losers and obnoxious gloating by the winners. That's part of it. But in the grand scheme of things, we should be able to talk with each other, and I'm glad that seems to be playing out here with at least some of us.
-- David Bruce Murray is still "Making hay while the sun shines" Reviews and my BRAND NEW BLOG: www.musicscribe.com/blog.html
David Bruce Murray 1 May 2005 23:31:54 [ permanent link ]
"Susan Anderson" wrote in message news:418b9997$0$86464$a1866201@visi.com...> I just needed to vent some of that, and to put out another point> of view, from the one that is in this group most of the time.
Everyone deserves a chance to vent now and then! :o)
-- David Bruce Murray is still "Making hay while the sun shines" Reviews and my BRAND NEW BLOG: www.musicscribe.com/blog.html
I'm going to sin and top post here... I don't have comments to specific items in your post, just a few general comments. I'm not going to speak for Ed, but he will probably agree with some of what I'm going to say.
I have a great deal of respect for you, Breeze, you've shown yourself to be a stand-up kind of guy time and time again. Someone that while I know we disagree on a number of issues, we can talk about them rationaly, and listen to the others point of view. I like to think that I'm the same way, though, I do know that I have my buttons. I think for both Ed and I right now, we are very sad, frustrated and angry, and that is definitely what came out in my initial post. I guess, I just needed to vent some of that, and to put out another point of view, from the one that is in this group most of the time.
Anyway...I guess that's all I really want to say at this point.
Susan
Breeze wrote: : "Ed Rock" wrote: : > And I can't apologize for expressing my views. I consider it a moral : > duty. I just challenge people who claim they vote conservative because of : > their Christian beliefs to read the book in which the evolution of their : > faith is recorded rather than taking the words of George W. Bush, Pat : > Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, and their minions as the Gospel. : : I so much wish I had more time for this, but I guess I did express my : overall point so I can leave it with that and a summary. All that you've : written about your views of the Bush administration, about what you : consider lies and grave policy errors, about how your theological views : don't match those of a great deal of evangelical christians, etc, etc, : can be debated. : We could all debate until the cattle on our Father's thousand hills come : home. You think you're right, they thingk they're right. However... the : point I'm making here is not to debate your views verses mine, or the left : verses the right, or certain christian beliefs verses other christian : beliefs. What I'm saying is that *while two sides very obviously : completely disagree,* we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. We : are one body, and one purpose of the individual members of the body of : Christ is to build each other up. I don't see much of that from : *either* side when it comes to "reaching across the aisle." BTW, : that phrase was a reference to what John : Kerry said in his concession speech. : : Indeed you can't apologize for expressing your views, and don't need to. : That is what makes this country so very great. You can speak up. You can : vote. You can campaign. You can take part in the process. Etc. But : *despite* who is in office, you have more freedom in Christ than you will : ever have in this world. The problem I have with what I've seen you write, : I guess, is that you come across as very self-righteous about your views. : You are right, and the fundamental right-wing Christians are wrong. They : are liars, hypocrites, greedy, immoral, bigoted, etc, etc, etc. *You* have : the goods on the right gospel message. They are wrong, wrong, wrong, and : since you study the Bible you are right, right, right. In that sense, I : see : you coming across as no better than, oh, say, someone else in this : newsgroup : who thinks he's right about everything. My point here isn't to put you : down for your beliefs, but to say that we as Christians can and do disagree : on many issues, but there are better ways to get our ideas out that to put : each other down. I'm passionate about this, as I used to be in-your-face : with my views and everyone else was wrong. But now I listen to where other : people are coming from. I put myself in their shoes. I can understand : where they're coming from, even if I don't agree with them and think : they're : totally whacked out. I meet them where they're at, and I understand that : *I* see dimly as through a glass just as much as I think they do. One : day I : think we will *all* be surprised at how wrong we were about some things : and : about how right others were about some things. The best antidote to that : in : this current life is to put love above all our disagreements. I'm not : saying to not voice our disagreements, but to do it in love. : : Paul went through hell for speaking up for Christ. He was beaten, he took : the 39 lashes several times, he ended his life in house arrest... but he : considered himself free, and he praised and gave glory to God through all : circumstances. No matter who is in office, Bush or Kerry, democrats or : republicans, conservatives or liberals, we should all, as one body, lift up : the name of Jesus and be as one. It starts with those who know to do that. : My purpose here, I guess, is to throw that up in the air and see if anyone : is willing to catch it. : : -Breeze : : :
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Susan keepon@nospam.visi.com
"If God is a DJ, life is a dance floor, love is the rhythm, you are the music." Pink
"Ed Rock" wrote:> And I can't apologize for expressing my views. I consider it a moral> duty. I just challenge people who claim they vote conservative because of> their Christian beliefs to read the book in which the evolution of their> faith is recorded rather than taking the words of George W. Bush, Pat> Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, and their minions as the Gospel.
I so much wish I had more time for this, but I guess I did express my overall point so I can leave it with that and a summary. All that you've written about your views of the Bush administration, about what you consider lies and grave policy errors, about how your theological views don't match those of a great deal of evangelical christians, etc, etc, can be debated. We could all debate until the cattle on our Father's thousand hills come home. You think you're right, they thingk they're right. However... the point I'm making here is not to debate your views verses mine, or the left verses the right, or certain christian beliefs verses other christian beliefs. What I'm saying is that *while two sides very obviously completely disagree,* we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. We are one body, and one purpose of the individual members of the body of Christ is to build each other up. I don't see much of that from *either* side when it comes to "reaching across the aisle." BTW, that phrase was a reference to what John Kerry said in his concession speech.
Indeed you can't apologize for expressing your views, and don't need to. That is what makes this country so very great. You can speak up. You can vote. You can campaign. You can take part in the process. Etc. But *despite* who is in office, you have more freedom in Christ than you will ever have in this world. The problem I have with what I've seen you write, I guess, is that you come across as very self-righteous about your views. You are right, and the fundamental right-wing Christians are wrong. They are liars, hypocrites, greedy, immoral, bigoted, etc, etc, etc. *You* have the goods on the right gospel message. They are wrong, wrong, wrong, and since you study the Bible you are right, right, right. In that sense, I see you coming across as no better than, oh, say, someone else in this newsgroup who thinks he's right about everything. My point here isn't to put you down for your beliefs, but to say that we as Christians can and do disagree on many issues, but there are better ways to get our ideas out that to put each other down. I'm passionate about this, as I used to be in-your-face with my views and everyone else was wrong. But now I listen to where other people are coming from. I put myself in their shoes. I can understand where they're coming from, even if I don't agree with them and think they're totally whacked out. I meet them where they're at, and I understand that *I* see dimly as through a glass just as much as I think they do. One day I think we will *all* be surprised at how wrong we were about some things and about how right others were about some things. The best antidote to that in this current life is to put love above all our disagreements. I'm not saying to not voice our disagreements, but to do it in love.
Paul went through hell for speaking up for Christ. He was beaten, he took the 39 lashes several times, he ended his life in house arrest... but he considered himself free, and he praised and gave glory to God through all circumstances. No matter who is in office, Bush or Kerry, democrats or republicans, conservatives or liberals, we should all, as one body, lift up the name of Jesus and be as one. It starts with those who know to do that. My purpose here, I guess, is to throw that up in the air and see if anyone is willing to catch it.
