1. Deon Carstens 2. Hanyani Shimange 3. Eddie Andrews 4. Danie Rossouw 5. Albert van den Berg 6. Wikus van Heerden 7. AJ Venter 8. Joe van Niekerk 9. Ricky Januarie 10. Jaco van der Westhuyzen 11. Gaffie du Toit 12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 13. Jaque Fourie 14. Andre Snyman 15. Percy Montgomery RESERVES 16.Gary Botha 17. Lawrence Sephaka 18. Johann Muller 19. Pedrie Wannenburg 20.Ruan Pienaar 21.Wynand Olivier 22. Brent Russell 23. Wayne Julies
William A. T. Clark 30 May 2006 18:45:11 [ permanent link ]
In article <svco72lrf5n5m3jjq83lb4b9tu956pui3a@4ax.com>, Ferdi Greyling <me@thisplace.co> wrote:
1. Deon Carstens> 2. Hanyani Shimange > 3. Eddie Andrews> 4. Danie Rossouw > 5. Albert van den Berg > 6. Wikus van Heerden > 7. AJ Venter > 8. Joe van Niekerk > 9. Ricky Januarie > 10. Jaco van der Westhuyzen > 11. Gaffie du Toit > 12. Jean de Villiers (captain) > 13. Jaque Fourie > 14. Andre Snyman > 15. Percy Montgomery > RESERVES> 16.Gary Botha > 17. Lawrence Sephaka > 18. Johann Muller > 19. Pedrie Wannenburg> 20.Ruan Pienaar > 21.Wynand Olivier > 22. Brent Russell> 23. Wayne Julies
Well, if you have a better center in SA than Halstead, I'd like to see him. He may not be the fastest thing in the world, but his ability to carry the ball over the gain line and then distribute it is better than anything I have seen out of a SA center in years. Plus he is as strong as an ox.
On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:45:11 -0400, "William A. T. Clark" <clark.31@nospamosu.edu> wrote:
<<>Well, if you have a better center in SA than Halstead, I'd like to see >him. He may not be the fastest thing in the world, but his ability to >carry the ball over the gain line and then distribute it is better than >anything I have seen out of a SA center in years. Plus he is as strong >as an ox.>>
Halstead did his crash thing just next to the no 10 channel for the Sharks and for SA a couple of years ago and he was quite good when it worked.
The problem is that he was a bit one dimensional which meant he had to be used very celeverly and SA did not have the no 9 and 10 or the coach to get the team to that level.
The result was that he more often than not merely crashed with the ball, on international level mainly into the defence. Then he was dropped and he went overseas after a while.
Another aspect may be that a centre like him operates better on the heavier fields of Europe?
Right now SA has Jean de Villiers on inside centre who is a bigishs lad but does not have the low centre of gravity the Halstead has. De Villiers works more with lateral movement and distribution. He looks a better centre on our fields than Halstead looked - harder fields, warmer weather which calls for less crash and a bit more of something else. (Calls for I said, not that we get it).
It will, however, be interesting to see how Snyman does on the wing on Saturday. He has turned into a big crashing sort of player in the UK, I hear. Jake White has roped him in with an eye on the WC next year on European fields.
William A. T. Clark 30 May 2006 22:26:48 [ permanent link ]
In article <0sno7294e81rdrhup7t897fe12t1pe963c@4ax.com>, Ferdi Greyling <me@thisplace.co> wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:45:11 -0400, "William A. T. Clark"> <clark.31@nospamosu.edu> wrote:>
<<>Well, if you have a better center in SA than Halstead, I'd like to> see > >him. He may not be the fastest thing in the world, but his ability to > >carry the ball over the gain line and then distribute it is better than > >anything I have seen out of a SA center in years. Plus he is as strong > >as an ox.>>>
Halstead did his crash thing just next to the no 10 channel for the> Sharks and for SA a couple of years ago and he was quite good when it> worked.>
The problem is that he was a bit one dimensional which meant he had to> be used very celeverly and SA did not have the no 9 and 10 or the> coach to get the team to that level.
Good point. I think he has been used quite intelligently by Munster, with the under-rated O'Gara and Stringer feeding, and originally the very quick Murphy alongside him as a nice contrast. Also, he got lightning quick support from the forwards, especially Wallace. He would need to be part of a well thought-out game plan, though, and it appears that this is an area that has troubled the Springboks (outside the scrum, at least) for a number of years.
The result was that he more often than not merely crashed with the> ball, on international level mainly into the defence. Then he was> dropped and he went overseas after a while.>
Another aspect may be that a centre like him operates better on the> heavier fields of Europe?
Could be, but he has showed very well on the dry, fast, tracks that were available here late in the season.>
Right now SA has Jean de Villiers on inside centre who is a bigishs> lad but does not have the low centre of gravity the Halstead has. De> Villiers works more with lateral movement and distribution. He looks a> better centre on our fields than Halstead looked - harder fields,> warmer weather which calls for less crash and a bit more of something> else. (Calls for I said, not that we get it).
Possibly, but I haven't seen much wit from a Springbok backline in recent years, and they are losing ground to several other countries in that regard. Even the Irish really showed them the way in back play on their last tour, even though they could not compete for 80 minutes up front.>
It will, however, be interesting to see how Snyman does on the wing on> Saturday. He has turned into a big crashing sort of player in the UK,> I hear. Jake White has roped him in with an eye on the WC next year on> European fields.
Yes, we'll see. I think it will take more than big, strong, ball carriers to win in France, though.
William A. T. Clark wrote:> In article <svco72lrf5n5m3jjq83lb4b9tu956pui3a@4ax.com>,> Ferdi Greyling <me@thisplace.co> wrote:>
1. Deon Carstens>>2. Hanyani Shimange >>3. Eddie Andrews>>4. Danie Rossouw >>5. Albert van den Berg >>6. Wikus van Heerden >>7. AJ Venter >>8. Joe van Niekerk >>9. Ricky Januarie >>10. Jaco van der Westhuyzen >>11. Gaffie du Toit >>12. Jean de Villiers (captain) >>13. Jaque Fourie >>14. Andre Snyman >>15. Percy Montgomery >>RESERVES>>16.Gary Botha >>17. Lawrence Sephaka >>18. Johann Muller >>19. Pedrie Wannenburg>>20.Ruan Pienaar >>21.Wynand Olivier >>22. Brent Russell>>23. Wayne Julies >
Well, if you have a better center in SA than Halstead, I'd like to see > him. He may not be the fastest thing in the world, but his ability to > carry the ball over the gain line and then distribute it is better than > anything I have seen out of a SA center in years. Plus he is as strong > as an ox.>
William Clark
As a Sharks fan (his ex side) I like Halstead Unfortunately it pains me to say that he did not step up when he got his chances However some player splay their best rugby late in their careers. Montgomery is one and it seems that Snyman may be another So maybe Halstead deserves another chance
In message <svco72lrf5n5m3jjq83lb4b9tu956pui3a@4ax.com>, Ferdi Greyling <me@thisplace.co> writes>6. Wikus van Heerden>7. AJ Venter>8. Joe van Niekerk
Where's Berger? -- Pete Devlin [{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}] "And don't forget my dog, fixed and consequent"
William A. T. Clark wrote:> In article <0sno7294e81rdrhup7t897fe12t1pe963c@4ax.com>,> Ferdi Greyling <me@thisplace.co> wrote:>
On Tue, 30 May 2006 10:45:11 -0400, "William A. T. Clark">><clark.31@nospamosu.edu> wrote:>>
<<>Well, if you have a better center in SA than Halstead, I'd like to>>see >>
him. He may not be the fastest thing in the world, but his ability to >>>carry the ball over the gain line and then distribute it is better than >>>anything I have seen out of a SA center in years. Plus he is as strong >>>as an ox.>>>>
Halstead did his crash thing just next to the no 10 channel for the>>Sharks and for SA a couple of years ago and he was quite good when it>>worked.>>
The problem is that he was a bit one dimensional which meant he had to>>be used very celeverly and SA did not have the no 9 and 10 or the>>coach to get the team to that level.>
Good point. I think he has been used quite intelligently by Munster, > with the under-rated O'Gara and Stringer feeding, and originally the > very quick Murphy alongside him as a nice contrast. Also, he got > lightning quick support from the forwards, especially Wallace. He would > need to be part of a well thought-out game plan, though, and it appears > that this is an area that has troubled the Springboks (outside the > scrum, at least) for a number of years.>
The result was that he more often than not merely crashed with the>>ball, on international level mainly into the defence. Then he was>>dropped and he went overseas after a while.>>
Another aspect may be that a centre like him operates better on the>>heavier fields of Europe? >
Could be, but he has showed very well on the dry, fast, tracks that were > available here late in the season.>
Right now SA has Jean de Villiers on inside centre who is a bigishs>>lad but does not have the low centre of gravity the Halstead has. De>>Villiers works more with lateral movement and distribution. He looks a>>better centre on our fields than Halstead looked - harder fields,>>warmer weather which calls for less crash and a bit more of something>>else. (Calls for I said, not that we get it).>
Possibly, but I haven't seen much wit from a Springbok backline in > recent years, and they are losing ground to several other countries in > that regard. Even the Irish really showed them the way in back play on > their last tour, even though they could not compete for 80 minutes up > front.>
It will, however, be interesting to see how Snyman does on the wing on>>Saturday. He has turned into a big crashing sort of player in the UK,>>I hear. Jake White has roped him in with an eye on the WC next year on>>European fields.>
Yes, we'll see. I think it will take more than big, strong, ball > carriers to win in France, though.>
William Clark
Don't disagree with any of the comments made about the Springboks game plan etc.
Except Some of it isn't game plan but just the lack of a decent flyhalf. Our last decent one was Henry Honiball who retired after WC99. Before that we had Joel Stransky Springbok sides did not look devoid of plans with these guys except when that idiot coach Carel du Plessis coached Honiball to stand deep when standing shallow was his natural game
Since then we have either had flyhalfs that stood to deep or lacked the ability/vision to move their backline forward. The lack of specialist inside centres has not helped either
However a valid retort to this is that some decent coaching could have improved these mediocre flyhalves Coaching is where we lack in SA - No argument. Ask any Stormers or Cats fan. Ask others too.
It is my opinion that NH Hemisphere club rugby has brought out the best in - Montgomery (defence and the high ball were very weak before) - Halstead - Watched him play for Munster. Very organised which plays to his strength - Snyman - Yet to be tested back in the SH but dead keen on seeing him - Sowerby (Well if he is now top notch then we must employ that coach)
Why - Could well be good coaching
However I am optimistic about White going fwd.
We still need a bloody flyhalf though. Jaco not top notch
On Tue, 30 May 2006 19:43:12 GMT, DC <---@yahoo.com> wrote:
<<>William A. T. Clark wrote:>
Could be, but he has showed very well on the dry, fast, tracks that were >> available here late in the season.>
An Irish or UK pitch in May is probably still a lot softer than a >Highveld or Bloemfontein (or even Durban?) pitch any time of the year.>>
Indeed. Walk on Ellispark, for example, and you quickly realise that the lush green (due to watering) that shows on the TV is actually about an inch thick on top of a very, very firm under layer.
On Wed, 31 May 2006 06:50:39 +0200, "Dave (SA)" <david.baker@domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote:
<<>Some of it isn't game plan but just the lack of a decent flyhalf.>Our last decent one was Henry Honiball who retired after WC99.>Before that we had Joel Stransky>Springbok sides did not look devoid of plans with these guys except when >that idiot coach Carel du Plessis coached Honiball to stand deep when >standing shallow was his natural game>>
What was the score against Australia under Du Plessis? I seem to have forgotten that now.
Anyway, consider this: The Bok backline coach was also the backline coach of the Cats in the s14.
Honibal was a great no 10 but that also fucked up SA rugby for a long time (and still is doing it). Honibal could stand flat. He was big enough and had the skills in contact. But very few no 10's has that. Most - even if they are big, for example Larkham - must stand deep to get room to move. SA coaches has since Honibal instructed fly half after fly half to stand flat - probably hoping to get a repeat of the Honibal years. It has not worked because Honibal was exceptional in that ability plus, probably, he had a flank like Andre Venter behind him.
It is just plain silly to ask Jaco or Pretorius to stand flat.
The Honibal obsessio can also be seen in White picking Bosman - a very mediocre no 10 with serious flaws - but he is as big as Honibal and for that reason he is picked.
Rather pick a decent tight 5, get your loose forwards to be busy as bees around the no 10 and 11 channels and have a fleet footed no 10 stand a bit deeper and MAKE UP HIS OWN SWEET MIND when he gets the ball.
On Tue, 30 May 2006 21:12:07 +0200, "Dave (SA)" <david.baker@domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote:
<<>As a Sharks fan (his ex side) I like Halstead>Unfortunately it pains me to say that he did not step up when he got his >chances>However some player splay their best rugby late in their careers. >Montgomery is one and it seems that Snyman may be another>So maybe Halstead deserves another chance>>
Montgomery was always good. Dicey under the high ball but solid in the rest and he has always had the ability to link up and keep the ball alive.
Snyman was good when he had speed. I amd very sceptical about him. The last time he got a chance of our hard feilds was in the Bok trials that Straeuli held on Loftus and most of the other players then ran circles around him.
On Tue, 30 May 2006 22:53:11 +0100, pete devlin <spamtrap@secondrow.co.uk> wrote:
<<>In message <svco72lrf5n5m3jjq83lb4b9tu956pui3a@4ax.com>, Ferdi Greyling ><me@thisplace.co> writes>>6. Wikus van Heerden>>7. AJ Venter>>8. Joe van Niekerk>
Ferdi Greyling wrote:> On Wed, 31 May 2006 06:50:39 +0200, "Dave (SA)"> <david.baker@domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote:>
<<>Some of it isn't game plan but just the lack of a decent flyhalf.>
Our last decent one was Henry Honiball who retired after WC99.>>Before that we had Joel Stransky>>Springbok sides did not look devoid of plans with these guys except when >>that idiot coach Carel du Plessis coached Honiball to stand deep when >>standing shallow was his natural game>>>
What was the score against Australia under Du Plessis? I seem to have> forgotten that now.>
Anyway, consider this: The Bok backline coach was also the backline> coach of the Cats in the s14.>
Honibal was a great no 10 but that also fucked up SA rugby for a long> time (and still is doing it). Honibal could stand flat. He was big> enough and had the skills in contact. But very few no 10's has that.> Most - even if they are big, for example Larkham - must stand deep to> get room to move.> SA coaches has since Honibal instructed fly half after fly half to> stand flat - probably hoping to get a repeat of the Honibal years.> It has not worked because Honibal was exceptional in that ability> plus, probably, he had a flank like Andre Venter behind him.>
It is just plain silly to ask Jaco or Pretorius to stand flat. >
The Honibal obsessio can also be seen in White picking Bosman - a very> mediocre no 10 with serious flaws - but he is as big as Honibal and> for that reason he is picked.>
Rather pick a decent tight 5, get your loose forwards to be busy as> bees around the no 10 and 11 channels and have a fleet footed no 10> stand a bit deeper and MAKE UP HIS OWN SWEET MIND when he gets the> ball.>
And have our team score some tries.>
Carel had one good game - his last
Your comments about Honiball innocently fucking up SA flyhalfs has merit. Not that he can be blamed
Honiball had strength, talent and vision. When we used him correctly the Boks were not beaten.
You are right about how SA rugby idolised Honiball. If one reads nbooks - Mallett and van der Valk's attriburte SA's drop off after 1999 to the Honiball void\ - Iam NcIntosh clearly worshipped the ground Honiball walked on Other players would get rested if they had a niggle. Not with Honiball - Gary Teichmanns book follows in the same vein
Back in 1994/5 I met a few of the Auckland All Blacks (and regular players). Their admiration for Honiball was huge. You could have sworn he was a Kiwi
I met Honiball too (only briefly) and what a nice down to earth, farm boy he was/is. A gentleman. My own vision is impaired. I would pick him now if he would play and he is over 40. Ask me in 10 years and I would probabluy still pick him.
You are right - we are seeking another Honiball. But imagine if we found one - we would be special
On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:26:13 +0200, "Dave (SA)" <david.baker@domainfollowsgilga.com> wrote:
<<>You are right - we are seeking another Honiball.>But imagine if we found one - we would be special>>
They must forget him an deal with what they have.
I remember watching Honibal as a young inside centre/fly half for the Free State. He was slick and had the sort of deception built into his movements that Hugo Porta also used to have.
And that is precisely why I get so pissed off with guys like White when they pick this Bosman kid basically because he plays no 10 and has the Honibal size. Bosman is not Honibal and will never be. Bosman is an ordinary no 10. Honibal was a good no 10 - NOT BECAUSE OF HIS SIZE. The size was an added benefit.
It must, however, also be remembered that Honibal was a very dicey kicker to post. He could at times hit the corner flag from right in front of the posts. He was not a brilliant line kicker either.
Great defender, slick mover. With size. Three good things to have on no 10.
