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GYXU > Kites, widsurfing, waterski > Why Volume? 16 May 2005 12:36:06

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Why Volume?

Guest 12 May 2005 05:58:47
 1) Common knowledge has it that we plane on surface area, not volume.

2) I'm over 210# (not sure how much....been afraid to step on the scales after
this winter...), 65 years old, extraordinarly clumsy, uncoordinated, inflexible
to the extreme, and not in particularly good shape - but I can uphaul my
Starboard 123 with a 7.8 on it anytime, anywhere - no problem.


Given the above, it seems like very few people would need anything with volume
much over 120 liters.

That begs the question: "Why do we have 140-150-170 liter boards? Why not make
something with the same bottom shape/area in 120-or-so liters and have thinner
rails?" Less material, easier to carry, better looking....maybe even better
turning.

Unencumbered by any real knowledge, I'd guess it's a marketing reality. The
buyer can grasp a series of boards that have increasing displacements as they
get "larger"... but would have trouble comprehending boards of more-or-less
similar displacement but different areas/shapes.


--
PeteCresswell
Add comment
Dan Weiss 12 May 2005 08:32:31 permanent link ]
 I think volume as a measure of stiffness requires rethinking. Volume is the
space a board takes up. Other than the skin of the board and some
components, what's left? Mostly or entirely air (foam being mostly air).
Foam adds so little stiffness that reducing its amount by reducing
thickness doesn't change the stiffness much at all. Thicker boards do
employ higher rails which tends to help stiffness, true.

Stiffness is best achieved by the structure of the board, not by the amount
of air or foam inside. There is a limit, but I'd bet that limit is measured
in millimeters. Just look at water-skis and kiteboards for an example.

-Dan
<smyer@fit.edu> wrote in message
news:1115865995.125­929.232190@g43g2000c­wa.googlegroups.com.­..>I think to an extent this is happening. My 2005 Exocet 117 Cross is> 69cm wide, 117liters (awesome board by the way). Think back a few> years, a board of similar width would have easily been in the 130 to> 150 liter range.>
You must consider that if volume is to remain constant and width is to> increase, then either lenght, or thickness, or both must decrease.> Boards have certainly gotten shorter, but there is a limit on how thin> a board can be made before it will become excessively flimsy or simply> snap in half.>
Also, I suspect that the weight gain from adding say 10 liters is quite> small. Increase thickness by maybe 1/2cm you can add 10-20 liters and> increase strength at the cost of probably only a few ounces of> material.>
(PeteCresswell) wrote:>> 1) Common knowledge has it that we plane on surface area, not volume.>>
2) I'm over 210# (not sure how much....been afraid to step on the> scales after>> this winter...), 65 years old, extraordinarly clumsy, uncoordinated,> inflexible>> to the extreme, and not in particularly good shape - but I can uphaul> my>> Starboard 123 with a 7.8 on it anytime, anywhere - no problem.>>
Given the above, it seems like very few people would need anything> with volume>> much over 120 liters.>>
That begs the question: "Why do we have 140-150-170 liter boards?> Why not make>> something with the same bottom shape/area in 120-or-so liters and> have thinner>> rails?" Less material, easier to carry, better looking....maybe> even better>> turning.>>
Unencumbered by any real knowledge, I'd guess it's a marketing> reality. The>> buyer can grasp a series of boards that have increasing displacements> as they>> get "larger"... but would have trouble comprehending boards of> more-or-less>> similar displacement but different areas/shapes.>>
-- >> PeteCresswell>


Add comment
Jeff Feehan 12 May 2005 15:11:34 permanent link ]
 
newer boards do generally have less volume than older boards, and it's
because of the width. but i still think there is a need for 150-160
liters - which is where some of the current formula boards are (at
leats according to their specs). i think we can safely assume that
formula boards have been through a pretty darwinian selection process,
and the volume is there because it's faster, (within the constraints
of formula rules, i.e., one board allowed, and not for marketing.

i recently posted about my experience with the starboard 117 formula board.
it's 100 cm wide, and has the outline of a typical formula board, but is
a lot thinner, and has a volume of 117 liters compared with 145-150 for
more typical formula boards. i absolutely loved the board, but at about
160lbs (72kg) i'm light - a lot lighter than most good formula racers.
this board is really thin, and i would guess that for heavier guys,
stiffness might be an issue. sail carrying ability might be an issue
too - a 12.5 might be just too much weight on the nose of the board,
no matter what the size of the sailor. your 7.8 is a small sail by
some peoples's standards. i probably won't sail anything smaller than
a 9.8 from the beginning of july till the end of august.

jeff feehan

i sailed

(PeteCresswell) wrote:> 1) Common knowledge has it that we plane on surface area, not volume.>
2) I'm over 210# (not sure how much....been afraid to step on the scales after> this winter...), 65 years old, extraordinarly clumsy, uncoordinated, inflexible> to the extreme, and not in particularly good shape - but I can uphaul my> Starboard 123 with a 7.8 on it anytime, anywhere - no problem.>
Given the above, it seems like very few people would need anything with volume> much over 120 liters. >
That begs the question: "Why do we have 140-150-170 liter boards? Why not make> something with the same bottom shape/area in 120-or-so liters and have thinner> rails?" Less material, easier to carry, better looking....maybe even better> turning.>
Unencumbered by any real knowledge, I'd guess it's a marketing reality. The> buyer can grasp a series of boards that have increasing displacements as they> get "larger"... but would have trouble comprehending boards of more-or-less> similar displacement but different areas/shapes.>
Add comment
Alan 12 May 2005 17:08:35 permanent link ]
 The only reason I use boards of greater volume is because of the slogging
between puffs if the wind is dying. Also comes in handy between sets if you
want to depower to wait on the next wave.

Alan
--
Windsurfing Club: http://www.ibscc.or­g


"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.z.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ed581tipc4hae­jeqm2ck4942utuuo1bdh­@4ax.com...> 1) Common knowledge has it that we plane on surface area, not volume.>
2) I'm over 210# (not sure how much....been afraid to step on the scales
after> this winter...), 65 years old, extraordinarly clumsy, uncoordinated,
inflexible> to the extreme, and not in particularly good shape - but I can uphaul my> Starboard 123 with a 7.8 on it anytime, anywhere - no problem.>
Given the above, it seems like very few people would need anything with
volume> much over 120 liters.>
That begs the question: "Why do we have 140-150-170 liter boards? Why
not make> something with the same bottom shape/area in 120-or-so liters and have
thinner> rails?" Less material, easier to carry, better looking....maybe even
better> turning.>
Unencumbered by any real knowledge, I'd guess it's a marketing reality.
buyer can grasp a series of boards that have increasing displacements as
they> get "larger"... but would have trouble comprehending boards of
more-or-less> similar displacement but different areas/shapes.>
--> PeteCresswell


Add comment
Cliff Frost 12 May 2005 21:17:19 permanent link ]
 I'm also unbothered by too much knowledge, but I do have a
relevant (perhaps) data point.

Mike's Lab formula board this year is shorter and has more
volume than last year.

With sailors of comparable skill, the new board is faster.
Volume is clearly only one factor among many.

Cheers,
-Cliff


"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.z.invalid> wrote:> 1) Common knowledge has it that we plane on surface area, not volume.
2) I'm over 210# (not sure how much....been afraid to step on the scales after> this winter...), 65 years old, extraordinarly clumsy, uncoordinated, inflexible> to the extreme, and not in particularly good shape - but I can uphaul my> Starboard 123 with a 7.8 on it anytime, anywhere - no problem.

Given the above, it seems like very few people would need anything with volume> much over 120 liters.
That begs the question: "Why do we have 140-150-170 liter boards? Why not make> something with the same bottom shape/area in 120-or-so liters and have thinner> rails?" Less material, easier to carry, better looking....maybe even better> turning.
Unencumbered by any real knowledge, I'd guess it's a marketing reality. The> buyer can grasp a series of boards that have increasing displacements as they> get "larger"... but would have trouble comprehending boards of more-or-less> similar displacement but different areas/shapes.

-- > PeteCresswell
Add comment
Glenn Woodell 12 May 2005 22:22:38 permanent link ]
 In article <d5vpjp$fte$1@news.­xmission.com>, cgoudie@es.com says...>
I heard your exact argument espoused, by both Tony Logosz,>and Bart Vervolet 5 or 6 years ago. In fact they maintained>that you don't even need floater volume, you just need to be able>to plane up, volume is useless (actually a hindrance) after that.> The last new sailboard design I saw of Tony's (about 4 years ago)> was a wide Fish shape which was about the thickness of a water ski>(maybe 50 ltrs max).>
I don't necessarily agree, because in Utah, I might have to drift back to >shore,>and then volume becomes your friend, but Starboard maintains that you should>be riding the minimum volume that will float you (upright).>
-Craig

That's always been my philosophy. I am solely a shortboarder and at 157
pounds, my prime board is 88L. I can carry a 6.6 comfortably and aslong as I
can be powered enough to plane and get in the straps, I have enough wind to
snap off a waterstart. I have always ridden the smallest board I could get
away with. I've been burned a few times by that (2-1/2 hour swim one day) but
I've had so much fun in between that it's been worth it.

Glenn

Add comment
Martin Frankel 13 May 2005 00:21:50 permanent link ]
 Here's a question: why NOT volume?

20 or 30 liters of foam is not very heavy compared with everything else
it takes to build a windsurf board. A board with higher volume will have
almost exactly the same surface area, and just as many finstrap inserts,
fin boxes, mast tracks, footpads, etc. It doesn't take much of an
advantage to justify the small added weight of the foam.

Apart from slogging, the advantage is structural. The stiffness of a
beam is proportional to the cube of its height. So a thicker board is a
lot stiffer and stronger than a thin board. Alternately, it can use a
lighter layup to achieve the same stiffness and strength as a thinner
board. This is useful up to the point where the stiffness becomes
limited by the strength of the foam in compression, or the skin layup
becomes limited by durability and dent resistance rather than beam strength.

Martin

Add comment
Ad. 13 May 2005 02:00:16 permanent link ]
 On Thu, 12 May 2005 09:33:11 -0700, smyer wrote:
However, If we are to look at vertical bending of the board along its> nose-to-tail axis we see that increasing the board's width results in a> linear increase in board stiffness, but increasing the board's thickness> results in a cubic (power of 3) increase in board stiffness. So> theoretically, doubling the board's width results in double the bending> strength, but doubling thickness results in 8 times the bending strength. > So, small increases in board thickness could result in significant> increases in strength and stiffness.

Yep, second moment of area: bd^3 (for a rectangular section, b is breadth
and d is depth).

Also a slab of foam with a laminated skin top and bottom is in effect a
bit like an structural steel I beam in its bending properties. The further
apart the two skins get the stiffer the whole lot gets - quite
dramatically too.

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment
Ad. 13 May 2005 02:07:18 permanent link ]
 On Thu, 12 May 2005 13:08:35 +0000, Alan wrote:
The only reason I use boards of greater volume is because of the slogging> between puffs if the wind is dying. Also comes in handy between sets if> you want to depower to wait on the next wave.

Yup. Volume is good for non planing stability - along with width and
length too of course. Hence the big volumes on the beginners boards.

I've got a 76L short/wide style wave board that planes pretty much as
early as my old 86L board, but the 86L one is way nicer to slog on when
neither can get planing.

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment
Guest 13 May 2005 06:01:01 permanent link ]
 Per smyer@fit.edu:>I think to an extent this is happening. My 2005 Exocet 117 Cross is>69cm wide, 117liters (awesome board by the way). Think back a few>years, a board of similar width would have easily been in the 130 to>150 liter range.

Can anybody comment on the 117 cross vs the old Starboard 123 Carve in terms of
planing area? I'm starting to get the impression that the 117 is actually a
significantly "larger" board in that respect.
--
PeteCresswell
Add comment
Guest 13 May 2005 06:02:42 permanent link ]
 Per AD.:>Yup. Volume is good for non planing stability - along with width and>length too of course. Hence the big volumes on the beginners boards.

But once the deck is dry, does additional volume help?
--
PeteCresswell
Add comment
Guest 13 May 2005 06:06:50 permanent link ]
 Per JimmySchmittsLovesC­hocolateMilk:>and whats wrong with Volume anyway?

I don't know enough to comment rationally, but my gut feeling is that:

1) Somehow, as the deck gets thicker thicker and the mast foot is off the water,
something is lost in handling ability.

2) Thin boards are (albiet probably marginally for most...) easier to
store/carry/transpo­rt than thick boards.

3) Thin rails carve turns better.

I would re-emphasize that #s 1 & 3 are based on any actual knowledge - just my
gut feelings...
--
PeteCresswell
Add comment
Ad. 13 May 2005 07:45:24 permanent link ]
 On Thu, 12 May 2005 19:02:42 -0700, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per AD.:>>Yup. Volume is good for non planing stability - along with width and>>length too of course. Hence the big volumes on the beginners boards.>
But once the deck is dry, does additional volume help?

More volume definitely helps being more stable ie the more volume you have
and the further out it is, the harder it is press down that edge.

The more relevant question then becomes at which point do you have enough
stability? Which is probably what you were asking anyway :)­

I imagine the answer is 'it depends' ie the average beginner will want
more stability than more advanced sailors. Hence beginner boards
having more than formula boards.

After all the better sailors do want to be able to press down that edge
when it suits them :)­

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment
Ad. 13 May 2005 07:54:24 permanent link ]
 On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:32:42 -0700, kurt wrote:
Volume won't get you planing, but it sure seems to help keep you planing> in light air. Anyone disagree w/that?

To a point. While it is surface area that gets you planing, volume helps
to prevent your feet and footstraps dragging through the water which has
to create a fair bit of drag while trying to initiate planing (and trying
to keep planing).

I think volume still plays a role in planing - probably nothing on big
boards, but getting progressively more noticeable on smaller boards. But
surface area (ie width) is still the dominant factor.

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment
Dan Weiss 13 May 2005 08:47:16 permanent link ]
 Maybe I don't get it. The entire reason we now sail styrene cores is
because polyurethane foam was so stinking heavy and added such little
strength or stiffness to the finished product. In the theme of "if we don't
need it get rid of it" epoxy foam was substituted for the heavy poly foam
and epoxy for the poly resin.

I can appreciate the reference to an I-beam, yet the stiffest boards for
their volume generally are hollow, like Doyle's, certain AHDs and Air
Insides. Removing foam allows the shaper transfer the weight savings into
meaningful structural rigidity.

There are foam core water-skis, wake boards and that sort of thing. I don't
know the first thing about design goals for these things but it could be
that at that degree of thin, the I-beam example makes more sense due to the
low mass of the foam used. The gain in shear strength makes up for the
slight added weight over a hollow core.

-Dan
"AD." <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:p­an.2005.05.12­.22.00.10.460784@pri­vacy.net...> On Thu, 12 May 2005 09:33:11 -0700, smyer wrote:>
However, If we are to look at vertical bending of the board along its>> nose-to-tail axis we see that increasing the board's width results in a>> linear increase in board stiffness, but increasing the board's thickness>> results in a cubic (power of 3) increase in board stiffness. So>> theoretically, doubling the board's width results in double the bending>> strength, but doubling thickness results in 8 times the bending strength.>> So, small increases in board thickness could result in significant>> increases in strength and stiffness.>
Yep, second moment of area: bd^3 (for a rectangular section, b is breadth> and d is depth).>
Also a slab of foam with a laminated skin top and bottom is in effect a> bit like an structural steel I beam in its bending properties. The further> apart the two skins get the stiffer the whole lot gets - quite> dramatically too.>
-- > Cheers> Anton>


Add comment
Craig Goudie 13 May 2005 18:15:46 permanent link ]
 There might be a negligable component of bouancy, but I think the answer is,

nope,


-Craig

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.z.invalid> wrote in message
news:cl2881pbnpbsu8­9l1frthbll73j30n2abm­@4ax.com...> Per AD.:>>Yup. Volume is good for non planing stability - along with width and>>length too of course. Hence the big volumes on the beginners boards.>
But once the deck is dry, does additional volume help?> -- > PeteCresswell


Add comment
Dan Weiss 13 May 2005 23:21:13 permanent link ]
 Hi sm:

The question of foam was posed by AD. I agree that thickness increases
stiffness from the standpoint of an I beam. I noted as much when I
mentioned increasing rail height might increase stiffness. However, boards
are far from uniform in their cross sections. I'd think (and you might
agree?) that other methods of increasing stiffness -materials being chief
among them- demonstrate more promise than changing the principal shape of a
board just to achieve that increase. I should also correct myself wrt the
Doyle boards. I recall that these were chambered boards, with the deck tied
to the bottom by way of baffles; In effect, an I beam!

-Dan
<smyer@fit.edu> wrote in message
news:1116005837.263­540.206670@g44g2000c­wa.googlegroups.com.­..>I don't know where the question of foam came from, I thought the issue> was the relationship between volume and stiffness. I agree, the foam> core really does little as far as bending strength goes. Compression> strength, perhaps (i.e. when you stand on the board your weight> compresses the top skin down towards the bottom skin).>
The I-beam theory is a good, simplified basis to start from. Take for> example an I-Beam oriented horizontally with it's flanges located top> and bottom with an evenly distributed load applied downward along it's> longitudinal axis. The beam's ability to resist bending is dependent> on it's length, the material used, and the shape of the beam. A longer> beam is more flimsy than a short beam. A steel beam is more rigid than> a rubber beam. A beam with flanges farther apart is more rigid than> one with flanges close together.>
So, on our windsurf board, since the foam is located on the inside,> towards the neutral axis, it experiences little bending load (basically> the same as the web of an I-beam, just there to hold the outside fibers> on the outside). The high-strength fibers are located at the extreme> ends of the board in order to maximize their distance from the neutral> bending axis. Thus, adding thickness (by foam, hollow, solid> fiberglass, it doesn't matter) to a board will make it stiffer along> it's nose-to-tail axis. Volume by itself has no effect on stiffness.> Only when volume begins to effect the thickness of the board (if the> board is made wider, but volume is to remain constant then thickness> and or length must decrease) does it become a factor in stiffness.>


Add comment
Ad. 14 May 2005 01:22:14 permanent link ]
 Dan Weiss wrote:
I can appreciate the reference to an I-beam, yet the stiffest boards for > their volume generally are hollow, like Doyle's, certain AHDs and Air > Insides. Removing foam allows the shaper transfer the weight savings into > meaningful structural rigidity.

Sure, I just whacked the idea of a rectangular foam slab in there to
simplify illustrating the point that the top and bottom skin do nearly
all the work of resisting the bending moments, and that the further
apart they are the better they can do it. All the foam really does is
hold them apart.

With the I beam, the middle web section does next to nothing for the
bending stiffness of the beam. The weak foam corresponds (roughly) to
the skinny web, while the stronger skins correspond (again roughly) to
the wider flanges. The webs job to hold the flanges a distance apart,
and to only really be stiff enough that it doesn't buckle sideways when
compressed.

For a hollow board, it's the rails that do the job of holding the top
and bottom skin apart. But it's still the top and bottom skin that would
do the bulk of the work resisting bending. The hollow board would be
more like a box beam or rectangular hollow section (RHS) member - ie
with 2 webs on the outside instead of the one in the centre.

Or in geeky technical terms, the second moment of area of the two skins
around the neutral axis is greater than the second moment of area of the
two rails around the neutral axis. This is because the skins are on
average further away from the neutral axis than the rails and also
because in terms of cross sectional area there is 'more' of them.

The reason the hollow boards can be stiffer is that some (or all) of the
weight saving from removing the foam can be added back to reinforcing
the top and bottom skins where it helps out the most.

I think we all are pretty much saying the same thing :)­

--
Cheers
Anton
Add comment
Ad. 14 May 2005 01:36:24 permanent link ]
 Dan Weiss wrote:> Hi sm:>
The question of foam was posed by AD. I agree that thickness increases > stiffness from the standpoint of an I beam. I noted as much when I > mentioned increasing rail height might increase stiffness. However, boards > are far from uniform in their cross sections. I'd think (and you might > agree?) that other methods of increasing stiffness -materials being chief > among them- demonstrate more promise than changing the principal shape of a > board just to achieve that increase.

Sure, both shape and materials determine the overall stiffness. If you
want to make the board thinner for performance/shaping­ reasons, you need
better materials to keep the stiffness and weight the same.
I should also correct myself wrt the > Doyle boards. I recall that these were chambered boards, with the deck tied > to the bottom by way of baffles; In effect, an I beam!

I suspect (having not seen them) the baffles weren't so much to act like
the web in a beam, but to help stiffen the skins as individual
'members'. A bit like columns or walls under a floor stiffening the
floor by reducing the span distances. Which isn't an issue with a foam
core - there are no span distances.

The Doyle boards probably had enough longitudinal stiffness overall, but
the deck probably felt too 'bouncy' without the baffles. But as I said,
not having seen them I'm only guessing and they could've been more
substantial.

--
Cheers
Anton
Add comment
Wolfgang Soergel 14 May 2005 02:10:08 permanent link ]
 Martin Frankel wrote:> Here's a question: why NOT volume?>
20 or 30 liters of foam is not very heavy compared with everything else > it takes to build a windsurf board. A board with higher volume will have > almost exactly the same surface area, and just as many finstrap inserts, > fin boxes, mast tracks, footpads, etc. It doesn't take much of an > advantage to justify the small added weight of the foam.>
Apart from slogging, the advantage is structural. The stiffness of a > beam is proportional to the cube of its height. So a thicker board is a > lot stiffer and stronger than a thin board. Alternately, it can use a > lighter layup to achieve the same stiffness and strength as a thinner > board. This is useful up to the point where the stiffness becomes > limited by the strength of the foam in compression, or the skin layup > becomes limited by durability and dent resistance rather than beam > strength.

It might not matter on a formula boat but on everything which is meant
to turn around and give a lively, "surfy" feeling, too much volume is in
the way. Especially if place in the tail or rails but if you center the
volume, the deck gets rather "domy" which imho is a hindrance for all
manouvers where you step on the deck outside the footstraps, from
uphauling over tacks, monkey jibes to Willy Skippers.
Add comment
Guest 14 May 2005 06:25:57 permanent link ]
 Per AD.:>The more relevant question then becomes at which point do you have enough>stability? Which is probably what you were asking anyway :)­

Yes, stability was what I was thinking about. Seems like the higher something
is out of the water, the less stable it becomes.

I'm thinking about my surf ski - about 18" wide at the middle.

The higher I sit, the harder it is to balance - i.e. there's a very noticible
diff between sitting right on the fiberglass of the seatwell and having a 1/2"
foam pad between me and the glass.

Seems like if the ski had enough more volume to raise me higher out of the water
(keeping the same width) that it would be tippier still.
--
PeteCresswell
Add comment


HiWind 15 May 2005 03:13:22 permanent link ]
 To come back to the original topic, I've got to agree with Pete's comments
about planing area being more important than volume. Look at wakeboards or
kiteboards for evidence.

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.z.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ed581tipc4hae­jeqm2ck4942utuuo1bdh­@4ax.com...> 1) Common knowledge has it that we plane on surface area, not volume.>
2) I'm over 210# (not sure how much....been afraid to step on the scales > after> this winter...), 65 years old, extraordinarly clumsy, uncoordinated, > inflexible> to the extreme, and not in particularly good shape - but I can uphaul my> Starboard 123 with a 7.8 on it anytime, anywhere - no problem.>
Given the above, it seems like very few people would need anything with > volume> much over 120 liters.>
That begs the question: "Why do we have 140-150-170 liter boards? Why > not make> something with the same bottom shape/area in 120-or-so liters and have > thinner> rails?" Less material, easier to carry, better looking....maybe even > better> turning.>
Unencumbered by any real knowledge, I'd guess it's a marketing reality. > The> buyer can grasp a series of boards that have increasing displacements as > they> get "larger"... but would have trouble comprehending boards of > more-or-less> similar displacement but different areas/shapes.>
-- > PeteCresswell


Add comment
Ad. 16 May 2005 01:47:59 permanent link ]
 On Fri, 13 May 2005 19:25:57 -0700, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per AD.:>>The more relevant question then becomes at which point do you have enough>>stability? Which is probably what you were asking anyway :)­>
Yes, stability was what I was thinking about. Seems like the higher> something is out of the water, the less stable it becomes.>
I'm thinking about my surf ski - about 18" wide at the middle.>
The higher I sit, the harder it is to balance - i.e. there's a very> noticible diff between sitting right on the fiberglass of the seatwell and> having a 1/2" foam pad between me and the glass.>
Seems like if the ski had enough more volume to raise me higher out of the> water (keeping the same width) that it would be tippier still.

Yep it would be less stable with a narrow base.

Typically stability is related to the metacentric height which from memory
(it was quite a while ago that I studied it - corrections welcome) is the
height difference between the centre of mass vs the centre of buoyancy.
For any given shape, the higher the CoM gets above the CoB, the less
stable it gets.

As a floating something starts tipping over slightly, it's CoB generally
moves outboard to the downward side - if it moves over more than the CoM
does it will right itself (the two forces create a righting moment), if
the CoM moves more than the CoB it will capsize.

So with using extra volume for stability, ideally it should be placed as
far out from the CoB as possible. Putting it all directly under the CoM
(like on your surf ski) wouldn't do anything when already floating, and
actually hurts stability by raising the CoM - which means that the CoM
moves further outboard for a given angle of tip.

But on a wide beginners board the extra thickness would allow the CoB to
move further outboard when tipping, and the CoM has to be much higher to
overcome that.

Also, raising the CoM 1/2 an inch when lower (eg sitting on surf ski) is a
bigger relative change than raising it the same amount when higher (eg
standing on a board).

Drawing diagrams helps explain it better than words :)­

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment


Ad. 16 May 2005 12:36:06 permanent link ]
 Warning: this is getting somewhat geeky. I apologise in advance to those
of you that are already bored ;)

Dan Weiss wrote:> To Anton and Wolfgang. I'm no engineer, so correct me where I'm wrong. I > think the only reason foam exists in a windsurfer is to give the skin of the > board something to form around.

Pretty much - with sandwich/styrene boards at least (ie stiff skin, soft
foam). I suspect the old urethane/glass boards were a little bit
different though (ie weaker skin, stronger foam - and stringer!) but
have to evidence to support that :)­
Unlike a true mold, where the material is > laid up or sprayed onto the sides of the mold from the inside (the > Windsurfer comes to mind), almost all production boards are created in molds > that press the onto the skin from the outside. The foam is there largely to > support the production process.

That sounds good to me - especially for sandwich boards.
Seems to me that the reason an I-beam (or anything like it) is stiffer the > farther apart the panels (the top and bottom skins of a board) is because > they are physically tied to each other via the "web." Assuming force on the > top (gravity is fine, but so is an anvil), the force bends the top sheet > that would otherwise bend more except for the fact that the bottom must take > a curve of much greater circumference. This greater curve would stretch the > material more than it wants to go which in turn creates stress within the > web in a radial fashion to/from the center of pressure coming from above. > The greater the distance between top and bottom the more the bottom sheet > must stretch, therefore the stiffer the beam up to the point of failure.

The 'bending force' is actually a moment rather than just a force. ie
the same anvil placed in the middle of a short beam creates less Bending
Moment than the same anvil placed in the centre of a long beam.

What happen with beams like in your example (lets assume rectangular
solid ones made from a single material at the moment - easier to
visualise) is that the top of the beam will go into compression and the
bottom will be under tension, and at the mid point there will be neither
tension or compression - this is the neutral axis.

The way engineers think of the beam is a stack of infinitely thin layers
called fibres. The outermost fibres are under the most load, and the
load of each fibre gradually reduces as you get to the neutral axis in
the middle.

Because the load on each fibre is slightly different from the one next
to it, they also have to resist the forces trying to slide them past
each other. This is related to the shear forces in the beam (although
strictly speaking the shear forces in this case will be vertical).

You can still carry load without the boding between some of the fibres -
eg if you hold three planks of timber at the ends into an I beam shape
but without nailing them together, they should still carry more bending
moment than the combined total of the three of them individually.
Although nailing them together would improve the overall strength
because it would help stop the top of the middle web member buckling
sideways under compression. It would also help reduce deflection by
mostly eliminating the sliding between the layers.
If this description is correct, then I think it supports my point that foam > offers little to tie the top and bottom sheets together.

Sure, to a point though. If you follow the timber example, it can still
do its job holding the skins apart without that bonding. ie due to being
enclosed by the nose, tail and rails the foam isn't going anywhere so
will continue to hold the skins apart.

Where good lamination of the foam does help is to stop the skin buckling
under compression - similar to how nailing the timber beam reduces
buckling and deflection.
In the very early > 1990's, Seatrend began using "foaming" epoxy that managed to squirm its way > as fingers between the beads of styrene inside their boards. The idea was > to reduce delamination, not to increase stiffness. Randy French commented > that the foam would simply tear apart if it carried the bending forces.

What the resin would actually do though is to transfer more load to the
foam by strengthening it. The stronger a material or member is in
relation to the others, the more load it takes. Or put another way, the
weaker easily stretched materials 'give' thereby tranferring some of
their load to stronger ones.

The effect this would have to reduce delamination would be by ensuring
that the foam took a higher load there was less difference in load
between the outer foam fibre and the inner skin fibre. Less shear force
= less chance of delamination.
The > rails did this, but so did the stringer running from tip to tail. I-beam > style. Materials do matter. That's why stringers show "print-through" over > time and why they were incorporated into the foam in the first place. The > reason composites are used is because they offer better strength to weight > ratios than a solid substance necessary to achieve the same stiffness, and > are often much better options to control both stiffness and cost at the same > time.>
The rails of the board keep the top and bottom sheet from deforming in the > same way a cardboard box can support a lot of weight when the weight is > distributed properly.

Yep a cardboard box would fail when one or more of its walls buckled.
What stops each wall buckling sideways are the vertical corners of the
box. Extreme example, but if you put a vertical cut in the corners (ie
reducing the bonding) they would buckle pretty quickly.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it :)­

Sure. Apart from some of the geekier engineering mechanics, you have a
pretty good handle on the situation.

And no doubt a more experienced engineer would say the same thing (or
worse) to me :)­

--
Cheers
Anton
Add comment
Dan Weiss 16 May 2005 17:32:15 permanent link ]
 Thanks Anton, you geek. :)­

-Dan
"AD." <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:WXYhe.393$U4.5­5566@news.xtra.co.nz­...> Warning: this is getting somewhat geeky. I apologise in advance to those > of you that are already bored ;)>
Dan Weiss wrote:>> To Anton and Wolfgang. I'm no engineer, so correct me where I'm wrong. I >> think the only reason foam exists in a windsurfer is to give the skin of >> the board something to form around.>
Pretty much - with sandwich/styrene boards at least (ie stiff skin, soft > foam). I suspect the old urethane/glass boards were a little bit different > though (ie weaker skin, stronger foam - and stringer!) but have to > evidence to support that :)­>
Unlike a true mold, where the material is laid up or sprayed onto the >> sides of the mold from the inside (the Windsurfer comes to mind), almost >> all production boards are created in molds that press the onto the skin >> from the outside. The foam is there largely to support the production >> process.>
That sounds good to me - especially for sandwich boards.>
Seems to me that the reason an I-beam (or anything like it) is stiffer >> the farther apart the panels (the top and bottom skins of a board) is >> because they are physically tied to each other via the "web." Assuming >> force on the top (gravity is fine, but so is an anvil), the force bends >> the top sheet that would otherwise bend more except for the fact that the >> bottom must take a curve of much greater circumference. This greater >> curve would stretch the material more than it wants to go which in turn >> creates stress within the web in a radial fashion to/from the center of >> pressure coming from above. The greater the distance between top and >> bottom the more the bottom sheet must stretch, therefore the stiffer the >> beam up to the point of failure.>
The 'bending force' is actually a moment rather than just a force. ie the > same anvil placed in the middle of a short beam creates less Bending > Moment than the same anvil placed in the centre of a long beam.>
What happen with beams like in your example (lets assume rectangular solid > ones made from a single material at the moment - easier to visualise) is > that the top of the beam will go into compression and the bottom will be > under tension, and at the mid point there will be neither tension or > compression - this is the neutral axis.>
The way engineers think of the beam is a stack of infinitely thin layers > called fibres. The outermost fibres are under the most load, and the load > of each fibre gradually reduces as you get to the neutral axis in the > middle.>
Because the load on each fibre is slightly different from the one next to > it, they also have to resist the forces trying to slide them past each > other. This is related to the shear forces in the beam (although strictly > speaking the shear forces in this case will be vertical).>
You can still carry load without the boding between some of the fibres - > eg if you hold three planks of timber at the ends into an I beam shape but > without nailing them together, they should still carry more bending moment > than the combined total of the three of them individually. Although > nailing them together would improve the overall strength because it would > help stop the top of the middle web member buckling sideways under > compression. It would also help reduce deflection by mostly eliminating > the sliding between the layers.>
If this description is correct, then I think it supports my point that >> foam offers little to tie the top and bottom sheets together.>
Sure, to a point though. If you follow the timber example, it can still do > its job holding the skins apart without that bonding. ie due to being > enclosed by the nose, tail and rails the foam isn't going anywhere so will > continue to hold the skins apart.>
Where good lamination of the foam does help is to stop the skin buckling > under compression - similar to how nailing the timber beam reduces > buckling and deflection.>
In the very early 1990's, Seatrend began using "foaming" epoxy that >> managed to squirm its way as fingers between the beads of styrene inside >> their boards. The idea was to reduce delamination, not to increase >> stiffness. Randy French commented that the foam would simply tear apart >> if it carried the bending forces.>
What the resin would actually do though is to transfer more load to the > foam by strengthening it. The stronger a material or member is in relation > to the others, the more load it takes. Or put another way, the weaker > easily stretched materials 'give' thereby tranferring some of their load > to stronger ones.>
The effect this would have to reduce delamination would be by ensuring > that the foam took a higher load there was less difference in load between > the outer foam fibre and the inner skin fibre. Less shear force = less > chance of delamination.>
The rails did this, but so did the stringer running from tip to tail. >> I-beam style. Materials do matter. That's why stringers show >> "print-through" over time and why they were incorporated into the foam in >> the first place. The reason composites are used is because they offer >> better strength to weight ratios than a solid substance necessary to >> achieve the same stiffness, and are often much better options to control >> both stiffness and cost at the same time.>>
The rails of the board keep the top and bottom sheet from deforming in >> the same way a cardboard box can support a lot of weight when the weight >> is distributed properly.>
Yep a cardboard box would fail when one or more of its walls buckled. What > stops each wall buckling sideways are the vertical corners of the box. > Extreme example, but if you put a vertical cut in the corners (ie reducing > the bonding) they would buckle pretty quickly.>
That's my story and I'm sticking to it :)­>
Sure. Apart from some of the geekier engineering mechanics, you have a > pretty good handle on the situation.>
And no doubt a more experienced engineer would say the same thing (or > worse) to me :)­>
-- > Cheers> Anton


Add comment


Wolfgang Soergel 17 May 2005 01:43:59 permanent link ]
 Dan Weiss wrote:> To Anton and Wolfgang. I'm no engineer, so correct me where I'm wrong. I > think the only reason foam exists in a windsurfer is to give the skin of the > board something to form around. Unlike a true mold, where the material is > laid up or sprayed onto the sides of the mold from the inside (the > Windsurfer comes to mind), almost all production boards are created in molds > that press the onto the skin from the outside. The foam is there largely to > support the production process.>
I think Anton described it pretty well. Yes, the foam is partly a help
for the production process. In a hollow board, the rails are the "web"
in the I-beam structure. But the core also helps to really keep top and
bottom apart. And, if not easily delaminated, avoids buckling failure
modes not easily covered by static mechanics. Thus: Thicker is stiffer
and stronger, especially if the core is able to withstand delamination.
Even if the core does not take any real load.

Or, very short: A complete sandwich hull can withstand more than the sum
of the parts it is made of.

Wolf"engineering geek"gang
Add comment
Ad. 17 May 2005 02:31:51 permanent link ]
 On Mon, 16 May 2005 09:32:15 -0400, Dan Weiss wrote:
Thanks Anton, you geek. :)­

Haha - it gets worse, I left the structural engineering world for IT a
while back. Hmmm... posting from his Linux machine at work... I'm a bigger
geek now!

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment
Ad. 17 May 2005 07:12:13 permanent link ]
 On Mon, 16 May 2005 22:20:36 -0400, Dan Weiss wrote:
Back to the original subject a.k.a. how thin is too thin, and your> regularly scheduled programming.

When they get stuck between the seats in the back of the car.

Wait, are we talking about boards or Wolfgangs taste in women?

--
Cheers
Anton

Add comment
 

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