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Re: sail flip in a jibe
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GYXU > Kites, widsurfing, waterski > Re: sail flip in a jibe 4 April 2005 23:20:48

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Re: sail flip in a jibe

Isobars 29 March 2005 20:34:49
 Sounds like neither of you has seen my jibe tutorial, far too long and
detailed to present here again. Two principles pertinent to this specific
question include: You don't just RELEASE the sail; you THROW it HARD into a
spin about its center, rather than LETTING it blow around its hinges (the
mast) like a barn door. The barn door approach usually loses the plane,
because the wind can't blow the sail around the mast until our board speed
drops below the apparent wind speed. "Spinning the top", OTOH, allows no
apparent loss of speed -- even promotes acceleration if done right -- from
one beam reach to the next. If I touch the rig at all between both hands on
the incoming boom side and both hands on the boom on the exit boom side,
it's because I've screwed up and am trying to recover. Any other time I
handle the rig it dramatically slows the sail spin and thus the whole jibe.

Caveat: I have no idea how well this works with 10.0s; the largest sails
I've ever used or done this with are 7.5s.

Mike \m/

<ssnodgrass@foxroth­schild.com> wrote in message
news:1112110573.355­580.139720@z14g2000c­wz.googlegroups.com.­..> Hi Jim.> First on the sail flip, you need to have your front hand as far forward> as possible so that the sail will not develope power during the flip.> With the step jibe, you slide your front hand to the mast as you step> forward.>
I just release the back hand and look forward. Don't let your eyes> follow the sail. If you look at the sail you will probably bend at the> waist (very bad). Next pull with the mast hand to get the mast up over> the board (also very important).>
Finally, reach under with the old back hand and grab the boom on the> new side with an underhand grip, drop, pop,and sail away on a plane.>
No problem. Good luck> Stu Snodgrass>
Jim O wrote:>> When someone ask you how to flip the sail in a jibe what is the best>> way to describe it? Should you through with your back hand or> something>> like that? Should there be a time when no hands are on the boom> during>> this procedure? Any other jibe tips are welcome. A whole jibe>> scenerio might be needed. Thanks in advance, Jim>


Add comment
Dan Weiss 29 March 2005 21:55:37 permanent link ]
 Enter your jibe sailing as fast as possible. Rarely speed be your enemy, as
it generates apparent wind and makes the flip a much less muscle-bound
affair than certain descriptions might make it sound. The lower your
apparent wind at the time you flip (low apparent wind comes from board speed
matching true wind speed) the easier the sail transition.

-Dan
"Jim O" <econno42@earthlink­.net> wrote in message
news:1112101411.975­545.132220@o13g2000c­wo.googlegroups.com.­..> When someone ask you how to flip the sail in a jibe what is the best> way to describe it? Should you through with your back hand or something> like that? Should there be a time when no hands are on the boom during> this procedure? Any other jibe tips are welcome. A whole jibe> scenerio might be needed. Thanks in advance, Jim>


Add comment
Dan Weiss 29 March 2005 23:02:35 permanent link ]
 Right. Good points, SM. That's why I said rarely :)­

As a mediocre FW sailor myself, I either try to jam a jibe as tightly as
possible which seems to create centrifugal force and helps the sail go
around, or take a wider jibe and use the rig to help steer the board.
Mostly the wider jibes help keep the speed up on exit. You can also delay
the sail flip, sort of like a reverse clew step jibe, which lets the leech
of the sail load up as you continue to plane in the new direction. The sail
snaps around pretty well, but you need to make sure to allow it to open and
breathe on the new tack in order to get resistance to push against. Or else
I find my heels weigh down the windward rail too much.

-Dan
<smyer@fit.edu> wrote in message
news:1112120105.023­411.103040@z14g2000c­wz.googlegroups.com.­..> Actully in really light wind formula sailing, this can be an issue.> The apparent wind direction approaches the induced wind direction> (straight ahead) when you enter the jibe. Thus, as you carve the board> downwind, the apparent wind stays on your nose, and sheeting out really> puts on the brakes. Suppose you're planing at 15mph in 9mph of true> wind, when you jibe, you could potentially be going dead downwind with> a 6mph headwind. The best solution I've found is to make sure I don't> oversheet the sail when entering the turn, don't make a real tight> turn, and make sure I get the sail flipped early and quick. Often> wondered if a monkey jibe (sailor steps in front of mast) would be a> solution, never had the balls to try it with my 12.5 though.>
Dan Weiss wrote:>> Enter your jibe sailing as fast as possible. Rarely speed be your> enemy, as>> it generates apparent wind and makes the flip a much less> muscle-bound>> affair than certain descriptions might make it sound. The lower your>
apparent wind at the time you flip (low apparent wind comes from> board speed>> matching true wind speed) the easier the sail transition.>>
-Dan>> "Jim O" <econno42@earthlink­.net> wrote in message>> news:1112101411.975­545.132220@o13g2000c­wo.googlegroups.com.­..>> > When someone ask you how to flip the sail in a jibe what is the> best>> > way to describe it? Should you through with your back hand or> something>> > like that? Should there be a time when no hands are on the boom> during>> > this procedure? Any other jibe tips are welcome. A whole jibe>> > scenerio might be needed. Thanks in advance, Jim>> >


Add comment
Dan Weiss 2 April 2005 04:06:03 permanent link ]
 Mike wrote:
Certainly those are vital points, and apparently you've gotten past the > standard scenario at many Gorge spots, where people rip across the river > leaping and slashing and doing tricks and lookin' GOOD, only to reach the > shore, bear off, and run downwind until they slow sufficiently that the > wind hits them from behind to swing their sail around the mast (how else > can the wind turn the sail?) SNIP

The sail flips from the shift in apparent wind across the bow, not because
the it catches up from behind. Unless you were being sarcastic, of course.

-Dan


Add comment
Isobars 2 April 2005 08:27:34 permanent link ]
 If a sailor is running before the wind, the rig isn't going to blow around
its hinge when released until the board speed drops below the ambient wind
so the apparent wind is from aft.

Mike \m/
.
"Dan Weiss" <dwus484@comcast.ne­t> wrote in message
news:BYWdna7q-6V2fN­DfRVn-gQ@comcast.com­...> Mike wrote:>
Certainly those are vital points, and apparently you've gotten past the >> standard scenario at many Gorge spots, where people rip across the river >> leaping and slashing and doing tricks and lookin' GOOD, only to reach the >> shore, bear off, and run downwind until they slow sufficiently that the >> wind hits them from behind to swing their sail around the mast (how else >> can the wind turn the sail?) SNIP>
The sail flips from the shift in apparent wind across the bow, not because > the it catches up from behind. Unless you were being sarcastic, of > course.>
-Dan>


Add comment
Isobars 2 April 2005 21:24:18 permanent link ]
 "jeff feehan" <jfeehan@ix.netcom.­com> wrote > mike,> you and i have had this discussuion before - it's something that many> top sailors do, but it can be subtle, or not so subtle, depending...> i am sure you would recognize it right away, and say "oh, that.."


That's quite possible, maybe likely, as I've never been one for subtleties.
More telling yet, I don't even remember discussing the "stir-the-mast" bit
before. Just one more manifestation of the small pile of gray bits lying on
my pillow each morning.

i would say it might be used more in jibes where maintaining speed is> more of a priority than having as tight as turn as possible. i don't mean> that it's a light wind technique, just that when you go for a really tight> arc, you have implicitly chosen to give up a little speed, and that this> technique might be used on a more drawn out arc that might be chosen> when the sailor wishes to keep more speed on.


OTOH, one of the several reasons I like tight jibes is that they spend the
least amount of time coasting, thus lose no detectable speed, often gaining
speed because you're powered up on both of the jibe's broad reach segments.
Any time spent stirring the pot is time coasting, which is time
decelerating.

Mike \m/


Add comment
Dan Weiss 3 April 2005 17:14:17 permanent link ]
 Right. But only where poor or unusual jibing technique is found. No
planing windsurfer I know sails dead downwind for any period of time. We
pass through the eye of the wind in a jibe, and the true wind does cross the
tail of the board during the jibe. The apparent wind, however, swings
across so fast as to make the likelihood of the true wind causing the rig to
flip pretty unlikely. That's all I meant.

-Dan
"Isobars" <notgonnahappen@not­.today> wrote in message
news:Hap3e.2595$y_3­.2571@fe04.lga...> If a sailor is running before the wind, the rig isn't going to blow around > its hinge when released until the board speed drops below the ambient wind > so the apparent wind is from aft.>
Mike \m/> .> "Dan Weiss" <dwus484@comcast.ne­t> wrote in message > news:BYWdna7q-6V2fN­DfRVn-gQ@comcast.com­...>> Mike wrote:>>
Certainly those are vital points, and apparently you've gotten past the >>> standard scenario at many Gorge spots, where people rip across the river >>> leaping and slashing and doing tricks and lookin' GOOD, only to reach >>> the shore, bear off, and run downwind until they slow sufficiently that >>> the wind hits them from behind to swing their sail around the mast (how >>> else can the wind turn the sail?) SNIP>>
The sail flips from the shift in apparent wind across the bow, not >> because the it catches up from behind. Unless you were being sarcastic, >> of course.>>
-Dan>>


Add comment
Isobars 3 April 2005 19:34:44 permanent link ]
 Come to the Gorge. The vast majority of people here -- > 8 out of 10 at the
Hatchery anywhere east of "Kodak Point" and at many other places -- jibe in
such a broad arc that they DO run downwind until they lose their speed, let
the overtaking wind jibe the sail for them as Stu described, pump or power
back onto a plane, and sail away again. The ones I've asked about this call
that a planing jibe and do it deliberately. Don't forget I'm talking
sinkers, not big boards.

Mike \m/

"Dan Weiss" <dwus484@comcast.ne­t> wrote in message
news:C8qdnZNfZ6G1cd­LfRVn-tg@comcast.com­...> Right. But only where poor or unusual jibing technique is found. No > planing windsurfer I know sails dead downwind for any period of time. We > pass through the eye of the wind in a jibe, and the true wind does cross > the tail of the board during the jibe. The apparent wind, however, swings > across so fast as to make the likelihood of the true wind causing the rig > to flip pretty unlikely. That's all I meant.>
-Dan> "Isobars" <notgonnahappen@not­.today> wrote in message > news:Hap3e.2595$y_3­.2571@fe04.lga...>> If a sailor is running before the wind, the rig isn't going to blow >> around its hinge when released until the board speed drops below the >> ambient wind so the apparent wind is from aft.>>
Mike \m/>> .>> "Dan Weiss" <dwus484@comcast.ne­t> wrote in message >> news:BYWdna7q-6V2fN­DfRVn-gQ@comcast.com­...>>> Mike wrote:>>>
Certainly those are vital points, and apparently you've gotten past the >>>> standard scenario at many Gorge spots, where people rip across the >>>> river leaping and slashing and doing tricks and lookin' GOOD, only to >>>> reach the shore, bear off, and run downwind until they slow >>>> sufficiently that the wind hits them from behind to swing their sail >>>> around the mast (how else can the wind turn the sail?) SNIP>>>
The sail flips from the shift in apparent wind across the bow, not >>> because the it catches up from behind. Unless you were being >>> sarcastic, of course.>>>
-Dan>>>


Add comment
Brad 4 April 2005 07:50:14 permanent link ]
 
I might as well ask for some advice too...

I'm on a 89L board and I generally try an 'aggressive' jibe in that I go
in hot hang down on the boom, roll my hips over, flip the sail with both
hands, etc. My success is about 20% coming out planing and maybe 60%
coming out without crashing. However, there is a going theme in my
crashes-- the sail is too far forward after I flip it. When I am turning (
sail still original position) I am bending my knees and hanging down and
then I push the mast forward, sheet in, pause, pause til I'm downwind
and flip. BUT many times the mast is still about 50degrees to the water
when the boom comes back to me, I grab the boom and struggle to keep
from falling forward but almost always go head first over the board
because the sail has more leverage than me. When I try to stay more
upright with my body position (less knee bend, less laying over the rail)
and sail I can never seem to get my board planning all the way through.
Is there just a happy medium between the two and? Sometimes I feel that
I dont wait long enough to flip the sail??

thanks-
brad
Add comment
Craig Goudie 4 April 2005 18:59:23 permanent link ]
 If you're getting pulled over the nose, It's likely not a sail flip problem.
More likely, that you don't have enough speed going into the jibe.
You should be able to "coast" through the entire 90 degrees of turn
without having to reach for the sail. Next time you try it I recommend
going just as fast as you possibly can as you enter the jibe.

-Craig

brad wrote:
I might as well ask for some advice too...>
I'm on a 89L board and I generally try an 'aggressive' jibe in that I go> in hot hang down on the boom, roll my hips over, flip the sail with both> hands, etc. My success is about 20% coming out planing and maybe 60%> coming out without crashing. However, there is a going theme in my> crashes-- the sail is too far forward after I flip it. When I am turning (> sail still original position) I am bending my knees and hanging down and> then I push the mast forward, sheet in, pause, pause til I'm downwind> and flip. BUT many times the mast is still about 50degrees to the water> when the boom comes back to me, I grab the boom and struggle to keep> from falling forward but almost always go head first over the board> because the sail has more leverage than me. When I try to stay more> upright with my body position (less knee bend, less laying over the rail)> and sail I can never seem to get my board planning all the way through.> Is there just a happy medium between the two and? Sometimes I feel that> I dont wait long enough to flip the sail??>
thanks-> brad

--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, RRD TT and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave­ Sails and Curtis Fins


Add comment
Brad 4 April 2005 21:46:10 permanent link ]
 
I am getting pulled over by 1) the sail and 2) because I am already
leaning forward from leaning into the turn and hanging down on the boom.
I flip the sail, grab the boom and then struggle to pull it back towards
me to regain control but usually it wins and I go over the nose and land
like I was doing pushups on the boom.

brad

In <1112635965.551309.­39430@f14g2000cwb.go­oglegroups.com> ssnodgrass@
foxrothschild.com wrote:> If he is going over the front because he is catching a rail, then he > is pulling the mast too far back over the board. There was a good > example of this in Alan Cadiz Jibe video.>
Add comment
Isobars 4 April 2005 23:20:48 permanent link ]
 One likely cause is waiting too late to jibe the sail. This costs speed
because you're coasting too far, and adds to the apparent wind because
you're now near the new beam reach rather than the new very broad reach.
These combine to dramatically increase the pull on your arms. Spin the sail
sooner, so the spin is completed and the boom back in your hands as you pass
through downwind or MAYBE 10-20 degrees past downwind if you're really
flying at that moment. By the time the wind "hits" the sail again at you're
already in the new broad reach at full speed, sheeted in, maybe even hooked
in, getting both feet in the straps -- all with little-to-no pull in the
sail in the entire jibe until YOU apply power as you turn up towards the new
beam reach.

Also, if you throw the mast across your face hard enough as you spin the
sail upon entering the jibe, this puts it further back where you want it, so
you don't have to reach or it or pull it back to you after jibing the sail.
The bigger the sail, the harder this across-the-face throw must be; when I
rig up because the wind has backed off, it takes me a few jibes to get used
to throwing the front hand harder with the bigger sail to avoid just what
you're describing.

Mike \m/

"brad" <isnowblind@gmail.c­om> wrote in message
news:20050404104610­616-0700@agate.berke­ley.edu...>
I am getting pulled over by 1) the sail and 2) because I am already> leaning forward from leaning into the turn and hanging down on the boom.> I flip the sail, grab the boom and then struggle to pull it back towards> me to regain control but usually it wins and I go over the nose and land> like I was doing pushups on the boom.


Add comment
Dan Weiss 5 April 2005 01:01:09 permanent link ]
 Don't lean forward. Bend at your knees and ankles and drive forward with
your hips. Keeping your upper body upright and your eyes fixated on your
exit point. Doing these things prevents your head from dropping, followed
by the inevitable break at the waist. Breaking at the waist unravels any
effort to oversheet which in turn reduces mast base pressure and pushes the
tail down, slowing down the board and changing the rail angle. You then go
over the front.
-Dan
"brad" <isnowblind@gmail.c­om> wrote in message
news:20050404104610­616-0700@agate.berke­ley.edu...>
I am getting pulled over by 1) the sail and 2) because I am already> leaning forward from leaning into the turn and hanging down on the boom.> I flip the sail, grab the boom and then struggle to pull it back towards> me to regain control but usually it wins and I go over the nose and land> like I was doing pushups on the boom.>
brad>
In <1112635965.551309.­39430@f14g2000cwb.go­oglegroups.com> ssnodgrass@> foxrothschild.com wrote:>> If he is going over the front because he is catching a rail, then he>> is pulling the mast too far back over the board. There was a good>> example of this in Alan Cadiz Jibe video.>>


Add comment
Dan Weiss 5 April 2005 21:12:47 permanent link ]
 Right on, Michael! Don't bend at the waist. I'm not really sure how much
leaning forward I do on my most effective jibes anyway. Certainly much more
than sailing along, but I might describe the position of the body as
"projecting" into the turn. Maybe that conveys a different message?

About 10 years ago Windsurfing Magazine did a very detailed, comparative
study of several different kinds of jibes. Illustrative photos of
Dunkerbeck, Naish and Larned accompanied the descriptive text. The degree
of commitment tended to alter the degree of projection, and the last series
showed Robby Naish laying down a pretty sick "hero" jibe. By projecting his
hips forward and toward the axis of the turn he was remarkably upright in
terms of the relative position of his head and feet. But for sure the
tightest jibe initiations require a head forward orientation. A great
example of this is Bruce Peterson projecting into his jibe on a small board.
See pic. 3 in "Jibing With Power", Windsurfing Magazine, Vol. 23 p. 84, Fall
2004.

The point I was trying to get across is that leaning forward or into the
jibe doesn't mean that the head should control the balance of the sailor.
I've seen a lot of people (and done it myself) allow a forward head position
to screw up their jibe simply because it's hard to look up with a forward
head. Our eyes must remain focused on the exit point. If we look down it
can lead to bending at the waist and blowing the entire thing. If we keep
our head up and draw the most power from our hips we can keep the rail down
in some pretty sick water conditions, including jibing across chop so steep
that we might try to avoid it when sailing along! Keeping the head up
allows our bodies to adjust to varying terrain automatically. We get to eye
the next ramp, or even glance upwind on the new tack.

-Dan

-Dan
"m--newsguy" <mtvnewsguy@aol.com­> wrote in message
news:1112700432.759­344.229190@z14g2000c­wz.googlegroups.com.­..>
Florian...I sailed Mecox Bay Saturday (4.7 overpowered) and Sunday (6.2> well powered).>
Dan, re>> Don't lean forward. Bend at your knees and ankles and drive forward> with>> your hips. Keeping your upper body upright and your eyes fixated on> your>> exit point. Doing these things prevents your head from dropping,> followed>> by the inevitable break at the waist. Breaking at the waist unravels> any>> effort to oversheet which in turn reduces mast base pressure and> pushes the>> tail down, slowing down the board and changing the rail angle. You> then go>> over the front.>
Great advice, except that don't you think it's more "don't bend> forward" rather than "don't lean"? To be sure, when doing this> properly your head is forward of your feet (mine is, anyway).>


Add comment
Craig Goudie 5 April 2005 23:54:45 permanent link ]
 Here's a (very old) picture of what's being talked about . This is actually
late in the jibe
where I'm throwing the sail away while snapping the mast across my face, but you
can
get a good idea of the angulation, and where the bend is coming from. The
conditions
during this jibe were OPed 3.2.

http://www.xmission­.com/~radius/UWA/ima­ges/image3.jpg

-Craig

Dan Weiss wrote:
Right on, Michael! Don't bend at the waist. I'm not really sure how much> leaning forward I do on my most effective jibes anyway. Certainly much more> than sailing along, but I might describe the position of the body as> "projecting" into the turn. Maybe that conveys a different message?>
About 10 years ago Windsurfing Magazine did a very detailed, comparative> study of several different kinds of jibes. Illustrative photos of> Dunkerbeck, Naish and Larned accompanied the descriptive text. The degree> of commitment tended to alter the degree of projection, and the last series> showed Robby Naish laying down a pretty sick "hero" jibe. By projecting his> hips forward and toward the axis of the turn he was remarkably upright in> terms of the relative position of his head and feet. But for sure the> tightest jibe initiations require a head forward orientation. A great> example of this is Bruce Peterson projecting into his jibe on a small board.> See pic. 3 in "Jibing With Power", Windsurfing Magazine, Vol. 23 p. 84, Fall> 2004.>
The point I was trying to get across is that leaning forward or into the> jibe doesn't mean that the head should control the balance of the sailor.> I've seen a lot of people (and done it myself) allow a forward head position> to screw up their jibe simply because it's hard to look up with a forward> head. Our eyes must remain focused on the exit point. If we look down it> can lead to bending at the waist and blowing the entire thing. If we keep> our head up and draw the most power from our hips we can keep the rail down> in some pretty sick water conditions, including jibing across chop so steep> that we might try to avoid it when sailing along! Keeping the head up> allows our bodies to adjust to varying terrain automatically. We get to eye> the next ramp, or even glance upwind on the new tack.>
-Dan>
-Dan> "m--newsguy" <mtvnewsguy@aol.com­> wrote in message> news:1112700432.759­344.229190@z14g2000c­wz.googlegroups.com.­..> >
Florian...I sailed Mecox Bay Saturday (4.7 overpowered) and Sunday (6.2> > well powered).> >
Dan, re> >> Don't lean forward. Bend at your knees and ankles and drive forward> > with> >> your hips. Keeping your upper body upright and your eyes fixated on> > your> >> exit point. Doing these things prevents your head from dropping,> > followed> >> by the inevitable break at the waist. Breaking at the waist unravels> > any> >> effort to oversheet which in turn reduces mast base pressure and> > pushes the> >> tail down, slowing down the board and changing the rail angle. You> > then go> >> over the front.> >
Great advice, except that don't you think it's more "don't bend> > forward" rather than "don't lean"? To be sure, when doing this> > properly your head is forward of your feet (mine is, anyway).> >

--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, RRD TT and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave­ Sails and Curtis Fins


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GYXU > Kites, widsurfing, waterski > Re: sail flip in a jibe 4 April 2005 23:20:48

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