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Improper engine timing?
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GYXU > Kites, widsurfing, waterski > Improper engine timing? 30 April 2005 19:40:10

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Improper engine timing?

Pknuckles 22 April 2005 06:28:57
 We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after timing the
engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me time the engine, (351
Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 degrees TBC at 600 rpm. The
mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees TBC at 1200 rpm. I enquired about
the different timing rate, but he said "it'll be alright.."

The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the engine
had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but would not go into
gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. After six or seven
attempts of this stalling procedure the battery dies.

A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine Cranks,
fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! White smoke
plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's and is now in
Hydrostatic Lock'.

I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to remove the
water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at the engine this
weekend.

Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need help.
Proper timing technique, etc...

Phil K.


Add comment
Tom Ruta 22 April 2005 08:27:19 permanent link ]
 On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:28:57 -0400, "pknuckles"
<knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote:
... The engine 'Diesel's and is now in >Hydrostatic Lock'.
...>Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next?

Give it a proper burial?

You will have to start tearing it down to see what damage you got from
the HL. You could have done major league damage to rod, pistons etc.
Or you could be lucky.
Add comment
Pknuckles 25 April 2005 18:29:17 permanent link ]
 I'm not going to give up just yet...I removed the plugs and cranked the
engine to remove water from the block. A good bit of water was removed.

I later replaced the plugs and started the engine without a hitch. No loud
bangs or misses. I think the engine is ok.

Now to time the engine...Any comments???

PK

"Tom Ruta" <rutat@cadvision.co­m> wrote in message
news:v6vg61drridg52­a1e6v00ahhkqsv1c8nbo­@4ax.com...> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:28:57 -0400, "pknuckles"> <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote:>
... The engine 'Diesel's and is now in>>Hydrostatic Lock'.> ...>>Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next?>
Give it a proper burial?>
You will have to start tearing it down to see what damage you got from> the HL. You could have done major league damage to rod, pistons etc.> Or you could be lucky.


Add comment
Pknuckles 30 April 2005 01:59:12 permanent link ]
 The HL problem was caused by a faulty breakerless ignition. The timing was
reset @ 600 rpm. No difference in performance. Engine ran fine cold but
performance degraded as the engine got hot.

PK
"Doug Meredith" <dougmechangethecom­tonet@patmedia.com> wrote in message
news:1114486338.746­46474514f7653b9a0fd8­4592d03c7@teranews..­.>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message > news:r97be.16745$c4­2.3460@fe07.lga...>>­ I'm not going to give up just yet...I removed the plugs and cranked the>> engine to remove water from the block. A good bit of water was removed.>>
I later replaced the plugs and started the engine without a hitch. No >> loud>> bangs or misses. I think the engine is ok.>>
Now to time the engine...Any comments???>
Setting the timing at 1200 rpm was the first thing he did wrong. On most > marine engines, you are already starting to get into the dist. advance, so > if you set it at 6* at 1200, that probably had the timing at 600 retarded > .IOW, depending on the dist advance, the normal timing at 1200 may be 12*. > he set it at 6*, which would have meant that your 600 timing was zero. > Thats the problem with car people playing with marine. they are 2 > different worlds. RTFM on that one. The book is why smarter than the > guy down the street. The timing error didn't cause the hydrolock. To get > water in the engine, you need a cracked block/exhaust, or a really radical > overlap cam, which a ski boat doesn't have. As Tom said, hydro locking > can cause all sorts of nasty things, like broken pistons, and bent rods. > I've had engines lock, with no problem, and I've seen ones that were > trash. You need to figure out why and how you got the water in the motor. > I'm not sure what the proper way to time your engine is. Its not computer > controled, so it should be just setting the timing at 600, and you are > done. You should really never have to screw with it, as it rarely ever > moves, unless you change something. Wait and see what the Marine Mech > says. Your boat is 20 years old, so its very possible that the exhaust > gaskets are bad, which would allow water into the cylinders.>


Add comment
Doug Meredith 30 April 2005 07:30:39 permanent link ]
 
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message
news:Y6yce.26749$Jg­7.22574@fe03.lga...>­ The HL problem was caused by a faulty breakerless ignition. The timing > was reset @ 600 rpm. No difference in performance. Engine ran fine cold > but performance degraded as the engine got hot.


ignition has nothing to do with any hydro lock. . The worst that would
happen with a bad ignition is that the plugs wouldn't fire right. Even with
a missfiring engine, as long as the cam is still going around, you have the
timing events in the same place. "if" you ended up with the engine shutting
off,and actually running in reverse, then you "could" suck water in your
exhaust. But that is the only way.. With the mild cams in ski boats, you
don't have enough LSA to cause reversion which is one of the causes of water
in cylinders, which causes hydro locking.


Add comment
Mark Kovalcson 30 April 2005 14:08:27 permanent link ]
 I'm hoping that this is obvious, but have you replaced your manifolds ?

I would assume that unless you pulled a hard reverse without rubber exhaust
flaps that a manifold problem caused this problem to begin with.


"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message
news:P­jZ9e.5056$f6.­5044@fe04.lga...> We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after timing > the engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me time the > engine, (351 Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 degrees TBC at > 600 rpm. The mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees TBC at 1200 rpm. I > enquired about the different timing rate, but he said "it'll be alright..">
The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the > engine had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but would not > go into gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. After six or > seven attempts of this stalling procedure the battery dies.>
A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine > Cranks, fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! White > smoke plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's and is now > in Hydrostatic Lock'.>
I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to remove > the water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at the engine > this weekend.>
Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need > help. Proper timing technique, etc...>
Phil K.>


Add comment
Pknuckles 30 April 2005 17:20:29 permanent link ]
 I have not replaced my exhaust manifolds?

PK
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message
news:EsydnUsVLKqBxO­7fRVn-sA@comcast.com­...> I'm hoping that this is obvious, but have you replaced your manifolds ?>
I would assume that unless you pulled a hard reverse without rubber > exhaust flaps that a manifold problem caused this problem to begin with.>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message > news:P­jZ9e.5056$f6.­5044@fe04.lga...>> We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after timing >> the engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me time the >> engine, (351 Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 degrees TBC at >> 600 rpm. The mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees TBC at 1200 rpm. I >> enquired about the different timing rate, but he said "it'll be >> alright..">>
The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the >> engine had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but would >> not go into gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. After >> six or seven attempts of this stalling procedure the battery dies.>>
A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine >> Cranks, fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! White >> smoke plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's and is now >> in Hydrostatic Lock'.>>
I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to remove >> the water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at the engine >> this weekend.>>
Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need >> help. Proper timing technique, etc...>>
Phil K.>>


Add comment
Mark Kovalcson 30 April 2005 19:40:10 permanent link ]
 Hydrolock is generally caused by a failure of the internal cooling passages
of the exhaust manifolds.

They rust out and water is FORCED into your engine's cylinders when the
exhaust valves open.

I replaced the manifolds on my 1981 Ski Supreme back in 1999-2000 time
frame.

Your 1986 is probably about due for new manifolds by now.


"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message
news:D­CLce.29549$c4­2.10842@fe07.lga...>­I have not replaced my exhaust manifolds?>
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message > news:EsydnUsVLKqBxO­7fRVn-sA@comcast.com­...>> I'm hoping that this is obvious, but have you replaced your manifolds ?>>
I would assume that unless you pulled a hard reverse without rubber >> exhaust flaps that a manifold problem caused this problem to begin with.>>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message >> news:P­jZ9e.5056$f6.­5044@fe04.lga...>>> We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after timing >>> the engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me time the >>> engine, (351 Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 degrees TBC at >>> 600 rpm. The mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees TBC at 1200 rpm. I >>> enquired about the different timing rate, but he said "it'll be >>> alright..">>>
The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the >>> engine had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but would >>> not go into gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. After >>> six or seven attempts of this stalling procedure the battery dies.>>>
A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine >>> Cranks, fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! White >>> smoke plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's and is now >>> in Hydrostatic Lock'.>>>
I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to remove >>> the water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at the engine >>> this weekend.>>>
Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need >>> help. Proper timing technique, etc...>>>
Phil K.>>>


Add comment
Pknuckles 1 May 2005 06:36:13 permanent link ]
 I'll check it out next visit to the lake. Are the exhaust manifolds
difficult to change?

"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message
news:AP2dnWf8GIhGO-­7fRVn-tw@comcast.com­...> Hydrolock is generally caused by a failure of the internal cooling > passages of the exhaust manifolds.>
They rust out and water is FORCED into your engine's cylinders when the > exhaust valves open.>
I replaced the manifolds on my 1981 Ski Supreme back in 1999-2000 time > frame.>
Your 1986 is probably about due for new manifolds by now.>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message > news:D­CLce.29549$c4­2.10842@fe07.lga...>­>I have not replaced my exhaust manifolds?>>
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message >> news:EsydnUsVLKqBxO­7fRVn-sA@comcast.com­...>>> I'm hoping that this is obvious, but have you replaced your manifolds ?>>>
I would assume that unless you pulled a hard reverse without rubber >>> exhaust flaps that a manifold problem caused this problem to begin with.>>>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message >>> news:P­jZ9e.5056$f6.­5044@fe04.lga...>>>>­ We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after >>>> timing the engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me time >>>> the engine, (351 Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 degrees >>>> TBC at 600 rpm. The mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees TBC at 1200 >>>> rpm. I enquired about the different timing rate, but he said "it'll be >>>> alright..">>>>
The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the >>>> engine had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but would >>>> not go into gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. After >>>> six or seven attempts of this stalling procedure the battery dies.>>>>
A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine >>>> Cranks, fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! >>>> White smoke plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's and >>>> is now in Hydrostatic Lock'.>>>>
I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to remove >>>> the water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at the engine >>>> this weekend.>>>>
Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need >>>> help. Proper timing technique, etc...>>>>
Phil K.>>>>


Add comment
Doug Meredith 1 May 2005 08:57:58 permanent link ]
 
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message
news:EgXce.30336$QR­1.29142@fe04.lga...>­ I'll check it out next visit to the lake. Are the exhaust manifolds > difficult to change?


Not on an inboard. With the motor box off, you just sit there, and unbolt.
To check them, pull the rubber hoses off, and then pull the risers, which
are bolted to the manifolds that are bolted to the heads. The center of the
manifold is where the exhaust comes, and around it, you will see water
passages on all 4 sides. make sure that the wall between the exhaust and
water passages is intact, Make sure both surfaces a flat. use high temp
600* silicone on the new gaskets, and bolt it back together. If you see a
bunch of corrosion, then replace. manifolds are a lot cheaper than engines.


Add comment
Doug Meredith 1 May 2005 09:00:35 permanent link ]
 
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message
news:UcXce.30334$QR­1.23251@fe04.lga...>­ Thanks for all the help. You seem to be a great resource for information.>
Just to be safe, I tested the engine with the points ignition and > everything sounded great. I noticed that the engine starts ok cold but is > difficult to start after it gets hot. In theory, going to the breakerless > ignition will rid me of this problem. I hope.>
Regards,>
PK


If the timing is off, (too advanced) it "may" start harder when its hot.
The electronic ignition throws a hotter spark, which will help with that.


Add comment
Doug Meredith 1 May 2005 09:09:10 permanent link ]
 
"Footngear.com" <midskier@hotmail.c­om> wrote in message
news:1114911930.892­310.279310@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com.­..> I have several times set the timing on the water> remove the motor box loosen the dist paw ( a little, enough to be able > turn by hand)> have a helper drive the boat wide open straight across the lake> adjust the dist for max rpm without knock , idle back down> see if it will start , to much advance and she won't turn over> if so back it off a little this proceedure can give you the strongest top > end ever> tighten the paw and forget it


This is SOOOOOOO WRONG! NEVER ever NEVER set the timing this way. Your
ear, or seat of the pants is not a timing light. Every engine has a max
timing at WOT that it should be run at. I don't remember what a SB Chevy or
Ford is, but on a BB Chevy, its 36*, depending on the Dist, its usually all
in by 3000 RPM. If you run the BB at more than that max timing, it will
detonate, which equals holes in pistons. with the timing set at less than
~30* total, you will lose power. Like I said, this is for the BB Chevy. I
run 34* total advance, and its all in at 3000. There is no improvement
running more than that. There is NO reason to be playing with timing like
this on ANY motor, and on a ski boat that is usually run at a max of 36 mph,
you aren't shooting for top end. Set your base timing to what the book says
and forget it. Because you have an after market Dist, you should find out
how many degrees advance it is putting in at what RPM. Then, based on your
engine, advance or retard your base timing to get the number that is
recommended for your max timing.

PLEASE do NOT futz with the timing the way that footngear is. you are
asking for trouble in many ways.


Add comment
Mark Kovalcson 1 May 2005 18:35:49 permanent link ]
 I actually have illustrated instructions showing how to do this. I don't
have them up on a website at the moment, but I could send them to you.

My Ski Supreme had a typical PCM Ford 351. Your Supra may have the exact
same engine.



"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message
news:EgXce.30336$QR­1.29142@fe04.lga...>­ I'll check it out next visit to the lake. Are the exhaust manifolds > difficult to change?>
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message > news:AP2dnWf8GIhGO-­7fRVn-tw@comcast.com­...>> Hydrolock is generally caused by a failure of the internal cooling >> passages of the exhaust manifolds.>>
They rust out and water is FORCED into your engine's cylinders when the >> exhaust valves open.>>
I replaced the manifolds on my 1981 Ski Supreme back in 1999-2000 time >> frame.>>
Your 1986 is probably about due for new manifolds by now.>>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message >> news:D­CLce.29549$c4­2.10842@fe07.lga...>­>>I have not replaced my exhaust manifolds?>>>
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message >>> news:EsydnUsVLKqBxO­7fRVn-sA@comcast.com­...>>>> I'm hoping that this is obvious, but have you replaced your manifolds ?>>>>
I would assume that unless you pulled a hard reverse without rubber >>>> exhaust flaps that a manifold problem caused this problem to begin >>>> with.>>>>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message >>>> news:P­jZ9e.5056$f6.­5044@fe04.lga...>>>>­> We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after >>>>> timing the engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me time >>>>> the engine, (351 Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 degrees >>>>> TBC at 600 rpm. The mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees TBC at >>>>> 1200 rpm. I enquired about the different timing rate, but he said >>>>> "it'll be alright..">>>>>
The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the >>>>> engine had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but would >>>>> not go into gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. After >>>>> six or seven attempts of this stalling procedure the battery dies.>>>>>
A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine >>>>> Cranks, fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! White >>>>> smoke plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's and is >>>>> now in Hydrostatic Lock'.>>>>>
I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to >>>>> remove the water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at >>>>> the engine this weekend.>>>>>
Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need >>>>> help. Proper timing technique, etc...>>>>>
Phil K.>>>>>


Add comment
Pknuckles 2 May 2005 04:15:24 permanent link ]
 Mark, you are right. My Supra does have a PCM Ford 351.

If you wouldn't mind. Please forward the instructions to the following
address:

Phil Knuckles
152 Bobcat Lane
Beaver, WV 25813

Thanks, and include your return address and I'll send repayment for the
shipping.

Phil

"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message
news:KLednXig5p3bdO­nfRVn-2A@comcast.com­...>I actually have illustrated instructions showing how to do this. I don't >have them up on a website at the moment, but I could send them to you.>
My Ski Supreme had a typical PCM Ford 351. Your Supra may have the exact > same engine.>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message > news:EgXce.30336$QR­1.29142@fe04.lga...>­> I'll check it out next visit to the lake. Are the exhaust manifolds >> difficult to change?>>
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message >> news:AP2dnWf8GIhGO-­7fRVn-tw@comcast.com­...>>> Hydrolock is generally caused by a failure of the internal cooling >>> passages of the exhaust manifolds.>>>
They rust out and water is FORCED into your engine's cylinders when the >>> exhaust valves open.>>>
I replaced the manifolds on my 1981 Ski Supreme back in 1999-2000 time >>> frame.>>>
Your 1986 is probably about due for new manifolds by now.>>>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message >>> news:D­CLce.29549$c4­2.10842@fe07.lga...>­>>>I have not replaced my exhaust manifolds?>>>>
"Mark Kovalcson" <mkovalcson@comcast­.net> wrote in message >>>> news:EsydnUsVLKqBxO­7fRVn-sA@comcast.com­...>>>>> I'm hoping that this is obvious, but have you replaced your manifolds >>>>> ?>>>>>
I would assume that unless you pulled a hard reverse without rubber >>>>> exhaust flaps that a manifold problem caused this problem to begin >>>>> with.>>>>>
"pknuckles" <knuckles02@hotmail­.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:P­jZ9e.5056$f6.­5044@fe04.lga...>>>>­>> We put our '86 Supra Comp in the water last Wednesday right after >>>>>> timing the engine. A retired auto mechanic up the road helped me >>>>>> time the engine, (351 Ford PCM). The engine needs to be timed a 6 >>>>>> degrees TBC at 600 rpm. The mechanic timed the engine at 6 degrees >>>>>> TBC at 1200 rpm. I enquired about the different timing rate, but he >>>>>> said "it'll be alright..">>>>>>
The engine ran great and off to the lake we go. Once at the lake the >>>>>> engine had difficulty starting. Once started, it idled well but >>>>>> would not go into gear, then the engine would stall and stop running. >>>>>> After six or seven attempts of this stalling procedure the battery >>>>>> dies.>>>>>>
A passerby helps us jump start the battery at the dock. The engine >>>>>> Cranks, fires and is running....then Ker chunk, Ker chunk, bang! >>>>>> White smoke plumes out of the flame arrestor. The engine 'Diesel's >>>>>> and is now in Hydrostatic Lock'.>>>>>>
I have already removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine to >>>>>> remove the water from the engine. A marine mechanic is too look at >>>>>> the engine this weekend.>>>>>>
Can anyone provide comment or give guidance on what to do next? Need >>>>>> help. Proper timing technique, etc...>>>>>>
Phil K.>>>>>>


Add comment
Tom Ruta 3 May 2005 07:19:35 permanent link ]
 On Sun, 1 May 2005 21:12:05 -0400, "Doug Meredith"
<dougmechangethecom­tonet@patmedia.com> wrote:

...>
The difference between 33* and 36*, on an 800 HP BB Chevy can't be felt by >seat of the pants, ..

Come on - "Butt Dyno" knows all! LOL
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GYXU > Kites, widsurfing, waterski > Improper engine timing? 30 April 2005 19:40:10

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