However, I thought I saw earlier someone did pull the pin for a chip (or maybe a fringe putt). I can't remember who but I remember my wife and I both asking why the caddy pulled the pin. Now in this case it made no difference as the ball ended up being off line a tad, but it was still an interesting action. I can't think of one but is there ever a time to pull the pin on a chip or fringe putt?
Jan Van Gerwen 13 April 2005 02:08:00 [ permanent link ]
"John Hill" <NoSpam!@JohnKarlHill.Com> wrote in message news:8kX6e.732$zq4.479@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...> Enough with the DiMarco shot....>
However, I thought I saw earlier someone did pull the pin for a chip (or> maybe a fringe putt).> I can't remember who but I remember my wife and I both asking why the > caddy> pulled the pin.> Now in this case it made no difference as the ball ended up being off line > a> tad, but it was still an interesting action.> I can't think of one but is there ever a time to pull the pin on a chip or> fringe putt?>
I thought that an uphill putt or chip from the fringe with little speed, it was best to pull the flag.
"John Hill" <NoSpam!@JohnKarlHill.Com> wrote in message news:8kX6e.732$zq4.479@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...> Enough with the DiMarco shot....>
However, I thought I saw earlier someone did pull the pin for a chip (or> maybe a fringe putt).> I can't remember who but I remember my wife and I both asking why the > caddy> pulled the pin.> Now in this case it made no difference as the ball ended up being off line > a> tad, but it was still an interesting action.> I can't think of one but is there ever a time to pull the pin on a chip or> fringe putt?
When the ball would be rolling downhill into the cup perhaps.
In those cases, the angle between the upright pin and the slope of the ground around the cup would create such an acute angle that the ball wouldn't be able to fall into the cup if the ball hit the pin. You'd have the same case if the wind were blowing hard enough to cause the pin to lean a bit to one side. The lean of the pin would leave little room for the ball to fall into the cup on that side.
In article <1113427215.931095.54590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Tex" <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:
So, ignore the results of any actual experiments that were done by> Pelz to prove or disprove the issue, and just go with what your logic> tells you?>
Pelz won how many majors?>
This is the same guy that wants you to test the "roundness" of the ball> so the putt will be "true" ??> Never mind the 1000's of imperfections on a GRASS green.>
Sheesh...what people actually believe. No wonder snake oil salesmen> still make billions of dollars.>
Tex
He did empirical testing. He rolled hundreds of golf balls at differing speeds and trajectories towards holes both with and without the pin in, and he kept track of the results. He doesn't have to have won any majors to do that.
Bottom line: more balls went in the hole (33% more) with the pin in.
-- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
In article <1113427414.151161.81660@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Tex" <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:
Except the ball fits very nicely in front of the pin.>
Define "nicely"....last time I checked, there wasn't too much> room...take out the pin and there is twice as much room.>
Which is why it is nice that Peltz actually tested to see which works> best - and found that the pin helps significantly.>
Yup, the same guy that tells everyone the perfect speed is the putt> that goes past the hole by 17 inches?> Wait...the perfect putt is the one that doesn't go past the hole!!!> Duh!> And if you need the pin to stop the ball and make it drop, perhaps> you've hit the ball a tad too hard!! >
But keep believing....>
Tex
I'll go right on believing in reality, thank you.
You should try it some time.
-- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
ChrisTheHeretic 14 April 2005 01:35:35 [ permanent link ]
Tex <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote: : >>So, ignore the results of any actual experiments that were done by : Pelz to prove or disprove the issue, and just go with what your logic : tells you? : : Pelz won how many majors? : : This is the same guy that wants you to test the "roundness" of the ball : so the putt will be "true" ?? : Never mind the 1000's of imperfections on a GRASS green. : : Sheesh...what people actually believe. No wonder snake oil salesmen : still make billions of dollars.
ChrisTheHeretic 14 April 2005 01:38:39 [ permanent link ]
Tex <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote: : >>So, ignore the results of any actual experiments that were done by : Pelz to prove or disprove the issue, and just go with what your logic : tells you? : : Pelz won how many majors? : : This is the same guy that wants you to test the "roundness" of the ball : so the putt will be "true" ?? : Never mind the 1000's of imperfections on a GRASS green.
Here's his report. If you want to criticize his methodology, go ahead. But I've seen this study done elsewhere with very similar results.
In article <1113434202.264714.34530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Tex" <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:
ChrisTheHeretic wrote:> > Here's his report. If you want to criticize his methodology,> > go ahead. But I've seen this study done elsewhere with very> > similar results.> >
If studies and science won golf, there would be nerds with no social> skills holding up all the trophies.>
Thankfully, golf is played in nature, were it constantly changes and> science and studies will never catch up.>
p.s. but you keep believing, it might help you get by.
You're the one believing in fairy tales, pal.
Golf is played in nature, but when you do a test on real greens with real golf balls rolling at real holes...
Well, the rational folks get the idea.
-- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
ChrisTheHeretic 14 April 2005 07:45:46 [ permanent link ]
Tex <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote: : : ChrisTheHeretic wrote: : > Here's his report. If you want to criticize his methodology, : > go ahead. But I've seen this study done elsewhere with very : > similar results. : > : > : http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/instruction/shortgame/article/0,17742,469186,00.html : : If studies and science won golf, there would be nerds with no social : skills holding up all the trophies. : : Thankfully, golf is played in nature, were it constantly changes and : science and studies will never catch up.
Ah. The "chaos theory" school of golf.
Given my swing, that's probably a good school for me to attend.
On 13-Apr-2005, "Tex" <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:
Except the ball fits very nicely in front of the pin.>
Define "nicely"....last time I checked, there wasn't too much> room...take out the pin and there is twice as much room.
Don't need twice as much room. "Nicely" is "enough room to not matter".
Which is why it is nice that Peltz actually tested to see which works> best - and found that the pin helps significantly.>
Yup, the same guy that tells everyone the perfect speed is the putt> that goes past the hole by 17 inches?> Wait...the perfect putt is the one that doesn't go past the hole!!!> Duh!> And if you need the pin to stop the ball and make it drop, perhaps> you've hit the ball a tad too hard!!
Been there, done that, and had the ball go in. It does happen.
So we've given reasons why the pin could help - to which your reply is "if it helps we hit the ball too hard". And we've given you a case study where this was tested - to which your reply is that you don't care for the tester.
Fine. It's your turn. Give us reasons why the pin could hurt (when the pin is not leaning), explain why we will never hit the ball too hard, and show us a case study where leaving the pin in hurts.
And then explain why its the caddie's fault instead of the golfer's fault for not tending the pin.
On 14-Apr-2005, "Tex" <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:
Not as many as Tiger who kept the pin in for his famous chip Sunday.>
And that pin helped how???
It didn't hurt. The original proposition was that DiMarco should fire his caddie for being so stupid to leave the pin in. Tiger agreed with Chris that leaving the flag stick in did not hurt.
Find a study you like better and report back to us.>
I don't study the game, I play it. Try it sometime, you might enjoy it.
I didn't ask you to do the study yourself - others are willing to do this work. I played yesterday after work. It was quite enjoyable.
If I want to criticize Chris' caddie though, I want to have more evidence supporting my side than supporting the other side.
ChrisTheHeretic 14 April 2005 19:23:27 [ permanent link ]
Tex <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote: : >>Gravitational pull : : You'd have a easier time getting me to believe it was simultaneous : inhaling of all the "patrons" in the grandstands.
John van der Pflum 14 April 2005 21:03:29 [ permanent link ]
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:23:27 GMT, ChrisTheHeretic <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
Tex <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:>: >>Gravitational pull>: >: You'd have a easier time getting me to believe it was simultaneous>: inhaling of all the "patrons" in the grandstands.>
There you go, hating science again.
Are you saying the inhaling of the patrons, or the volume of the crowd had zero effect on the ball? --
John van der Pflum 14 April 2005 22:06:54 [ permanent link ]
On 14 Apr 2005 10:51:25 -0700, "Tex" <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote:
There you go, hating science again.>
If you are suggesting a flagstick has a gravitational pull, then you>are saying "the flagstick sucks", therefore, I don't want to use it>because it sucks.>:-)>
Tex
Hey!!!! I demand an apology.
(BTW -- stricly speaking the flagstick does have a gravitational pull though it is completely negligible in this case. ) --
ChrisTheHeretic 14 April 2005 22:29:47 [ permanent link ]
Tex <marktexkoenig@yahoo.com> wrote: : >>There you go, hating science again. : : If you are suggesting a flagstick has a gravitational pull, then you : are saying "the flagstick sucks", therefore, I don't want to use it : because it sucks. :
