Rules of Play and Ground Conditions

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GYXU > Golf > Rules of Play and Ground Conditions 31 March 2005 22:19:48

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Rules of Play and Ground Conditions
Dave Lee 31 March 2005 18:06:35
	I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect. Where I play it is the Men's Golf Association that kind of sets the tone. Their competitions (weekly) are 'lift/clean/place' during the "shotgun season" which is roughly mid-Nov to mid March. We play (rye) overseeded bermuda fairways here and the bermuda is pretty dormant by mid-Nov. However, it is even more dormant by mid-March. Sometimes the rye overseed does well and sometimes it does not (in these cases you get these "rye teacups" which are little patches of rye dotted around dormant bermuda and your ball tends to settle into these teacups). So by mid-March the fairways are in the worst condition of the year (5 months of unhealed divots), but we are back to playing the ball down. You do get spoiled over the winter, but I played four shots from the fairway on a par 5 yesterday, and didn't play a single shot in the manner that I would play it from a normal fairway lie. I'm curious as to how other players/clubs decide on when to make the transition. Thanks. dave
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Bruce Newman 31 March 2005 18:11:06 [ permanent link ]
	In article <LtT2e.1272$44.695@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote: I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect. In my experience, it is the golf association (state or regional golf association) which makes this determination, not the individual clubs. Bruce -- Bruce Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada Open & Limited Edition Golf Art * http://brucenewman.com
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Dave Lee 31 March 2005 18:28:35 [ permanent link ]
	"Bruce Newman" <info@brucenewman.com> wrote in message news:310320051010385798%info@brucenewman.com...> In article <LtT2e.1272$44.695@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "Dave> Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> > 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> In my experience, it is the golf association (state or regional golf> association) which makes this determination, not the individual clubs.> Bruce> -- > Bruce Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada> Open & Limited Edition Golf Art * http://brucenewman.com That would seem (to me) to be an odd place to put the decision, unless these organizations actually tour the courses to get a perspective on the conditions. But maybe the transition is more predictable and uniform in New Brunswick vs. here in North Carolina. dave
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Sfb 31 March 2005 18:38:05 [ permanent link ]
	Sort of funny that you play lift/clean/place on over-seeded fairways. Isn't the primary objective of overseeding to have good lies all year round. Are they built on muck that drains slowly? While many Florida courses have sand bases all the way down to the water table, some older courses especially north of Orlando are built on filled in swamps which don't drain. Where I used to play has two nines on a sand base and one on muck. All three nines had overseeded fairways. While we occasionally played l/c/p on the muck nine, we almost always play them down on the sand based nines. Playing l/c/p on the muck nine is more of a summer rainy season thing than the winter. On a good draining sand base, about the only time the grass dictates l/c/p is the late spring when the rye and Bermuda are fighting as the rye doesn't want to die and the Bermuda is starting to grow again. Are you sure you don't have a bunch of guys too flipping lazy to play the ball down? "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message news:LtT2e.1272$44.695@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to > when> 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> Where I play it is the Men's Golf Association that kind of sets the > tone.> Their competitions (weekly) are 'lift/clean/place' during the "shotgun> season" which is roughly mid-Nov to mid March. We play (rye) > overseeded> bermuda fairways here and the bermuda is pretty dormant by mid-Nov. > However,> it is even more dormant by mid-March.> Sometimes the rye overseed does well and sometimes it does not (in > these> cases you get these "rye teacups" which are little patches of rye > dotted> around dormant bermuda and your ball tends to settle into these > teacups). So> by mid-March the fairways are in the worst condition of the year (5 > months> of unhealed divots), but we are back to playing the ball down. You do > get> spoiled over the winter, but I played four shots from the fairway on a > par 5> yesterday, and didn't play a single shot in the manner that I would > play it> from a normal fairway lie.> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs decide on when to make the> transition.> Thanks.> dave>
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Howard Brazee 31 March 2005 18:41:58 [ permanent link ]
	On 31-Mar-2005, "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote: I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect. At my home course, it is the calendar. It's easy to mark down when scores count for handicap purposes and to turn everybody's handicap account on in the computer based upon calendar. The trouble with doing it by conditions is that we don't have a magic moment when conditions are no longer winter like. Instead, things go back and forth.
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Sfb 31 March 2005 18:42:27 [ permanent link ]
	The clue is overseeding on Bermuda. He is down south, probably Florida where there is no winter turn off the handicap computer which is typically the l/c/p season up north. "Bruce Newman" <info@brucenewman.com> wrote in message news:310320051010385798%info@brucenewman.com...> In article <LtT2e.1272$44.695@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "Dave> Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to >> when>> 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> In my experience, it is the golf association (state or regional golf> association) which makes this determination, not the individual clubs.> Bruce> -- > Bruce Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada> Open & Limited Edition Golf Art * http://brucenewman.com
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Doug Main 31 March 2005 18:49:49 [ permanent link ]
	As near as we can tell, it was on 3/31/2005 7:06 AM when Dave Lee transmitted as follows: I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> At some courses here (Alberta) many dormant/dead patches of grass don't fill in until June, and guys are playing winter rules in friendly matches all the time. However, in tournament play, most of those patches are marked off as GUR and you get a free drop not LCP. Still, there are a lot of players who casually "turn it over" in the fairway if they're not happy with the lie. I've heard the thinking expressed this way, "Those guys on Tour get a perfect lie every time, so why shouldn't I try to get one too?" As for the original question, it's a local decision, I think, dependent on local conditions. -- Doug Main "Hard work never killed anyone. But why take the chance?" -Roy, metal worker, American Hotrod.
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Howard Brazee 31 March 2005 19:20:44 [ permanent link ]
	On 31-Mar-2005, Doug Main <dougmain@snipthisshaw.ca> wrote: Still, there are a lot of players who casually "turn it over" in the> fairway if they're not happy with the lie. I've heard the thinking> expressed this way, "Those guys on Tour get a perfect lie every time, so> why shouldn't I try to get one too?" Of course, those Tour guys don't get a perfect lie every time. And the rest of the conditions of their courses aren't the same either. To me, moving the ball to get a better lie is not golf.
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Dave Lee 31 March 2005 19:47:32 [ permanent link ]
	Re: Attached We are in North Carolina. It is my honest opinion that the overseeding is strictly for looks. When playing the ball down the fairways would play much better with no overseeding on average (although, for some reason, some fairways seem to take to overseeding very well and there is a good chance of your ball actually sitting ON TOP of something green). dave ps. They didn't overseed Pinehurst #2 this year (quicker bermuda recovery for the U.S. Open). It played much better than the other courses which were overseeded. "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote in message news:hXT2e.31620$191.23481@trnddc02...> Sort of funny that you play lift/clean/place on over-seeded fairways.> Isn't the primary objective of overseeding to have good lies all year> round. Are they built on muck that drains slowly? While many Florida> courses have sand bases all the way down to the water table, some older> courses especially north of Orlando are built on filled in swamps which> don't drain.> Where I used to play has two nines on a sand base and one on muck. All> three nines had overseeded fairways. While we occasionally played l/c/p> on the muck nine, we almost always play them down on the sand based> nines. Playing l/c/p on the muck nine is more of a summer rainy season> thing than the winter.> On a good draining sand base, about the only time the grass dictates> l/c/p is the late spring when the rye and Bermuda are fighting as the> rye doesn't want to die and the Bermuda is starting to grow again.> Are you sure you don't have a bunch of guys too flipping lazy to play> the ball down?> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message> news:LtT2e.1272$44.695@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> > I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to> > when> > 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> > Where I play it is the Men's Golf Association that kind of sets the> > tone.> > Their competitions (weekly) are 'lift/clean/place' during the "shotgun> > season" which is roughly mid-Nov to mid March. We play (rye)> > overseeded> > bermuda fairways here and the bermuda is pretty dormant by mid-Nov.> > However,> > it is even more dormant by mid-March.> > Sometimes the rye overseed does well and sometimes it does not (in> > these> > cases you get these "rye teacups" which are little patches of rye> > dotted> > around dormant bermuda and your ball tends to settle into these> > teacups). So> > by mid-March the fairways are in the worst condition of the year (5> > months> > of unhealed divots), but we are back to playing the ball down. You do> > get> > spoiled over the winter, but I played four shots from the fairway on a> > par 5> > yesterday, and didn't play a single shot in the manner that I would> > play it> > from a normal fairway lie.> > I'm curious as to how other players/clubs decide on when to make the> > transition.> > Thanks.> > dave> >
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Rick Rider 31 March 2005 20:23:38 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:06:35 GMT, "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote: I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when>'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> It is the determination of the course superintendent, since lift, clean, and place is to protect the course, not for the golfer's benefit, as many think. He is also the one that has day-to-day knowledge of the condition of the course upon which to base his judgment. He also decides if carts are path only, or 90 degree, or free roaming. It's his responsibility to keep the course in good condition so he gets to make the call.
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Howard Brazee 31 March 2005 20:57:03 [ permanent link ]
	On 31-Mar-2005, Rick Rider <ro.spamfree.rider@spamfree.verizon.spamless.net> wrote: I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> >'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> > It is the determination of the course superintendent, since lift, clean, and> place is to> protect the course, not for the golfer's benefit, as many think.> He is also the one that has day-to-day knowledge of the condition of the> course upon which> to base his judgment. He also decides if carts are path only, or 90 degree,> or free> roaming. It's his responsibility to keep the course in good condition so he> gets to make the call. These requirements are independent upon whether "winter rules" are in effect. Summer rain may result in cart-path-only rules, while they removed a sign telling carts to go around a fairway here, at the beginning of winter season. Some courses have a winter rule that requires players to rotate flags between holes on the green. I'm not sure what one should do when one is stymied by an alternate hole when putting - or by a hole with a wooden winter plug in it. Since they aren't in during handicap season, I would move my ball to the side without penalty, unless I was playing Match Play Madness.
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Dave Lee 31 March 2005 22:19:48 [ permanent link ]
	"Rick Rider" <ro.spamfree.rider@spamfree.verizon.spamless.net> wrote in message news:iq8o41plabe61n9rdivh95u34c901teh44@4ax.com...> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:06:35 GMT, "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com>> wrote:> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> >'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.> > It is the determination of the course superintendent, since lift, clean, and place is to> protect the course, not for the golfer's benefit, as many think.> He is also the one that has day-to-day knowledge of the condition of the course upon which> to base his judgment. He also decides if carts are path only, or 90 degree, or free> roaming. It's his responsibility to keep the course in good condition so he gets to make> the call.> Interesting - I've never heard that (lift/clean/place part) and would be really surprised if it affects wear/tear on the course in a significant way . dave
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Rick Rider 31 March 2005 23:57:23 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:19:48 GMT, "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote: "Rick Rider" <ro.spamfree.rider@spamfree.verizon.spamless.net> wrote in>message news:iq8o41plabe61n9rdivh95u34c901teh44@4ax.com...>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:06:35 GMT, "Dave Lee"><DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com>>> wrote:>> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when>> >'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect.>> > It is the determination of the course superintendent, since lift, clean,>and place is to>> protect the course, not for the golfer's benefit, as many think.>> He is also the one that has day-to-day knowledge of the condition of the>course upon which>> to base his judgment. He also decides if carts are path only, or 90>degree, or free>> roaming. It's his responsibility to keep the course in good condition so>he gets to make>> the call.>> Interesting - I've never heard that (lift/clean/place part) and would be>really surprised if it affects wear/tear on the course in a significant way>.> dave> See Appendix I Part B "Specimen Local Rules" section 3.b. "Preferred Lies" and "Winter Rules" It talks about severe weather conditions first, then, "When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, ..." Look at the USGA web site for the Rules and the Decisions on the ROG. Interesting reading. BTW, our "Committee" always defers to the Superintendent, because he also has say over pin placement.
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Mike Bowen 1 April 2005 10:45:28 [ permanent link ]
	"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message news:LtT2e.1272$44.695@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...> I'm curious as to how other players/clubs make a determination as to when> 'winter rules' (lift/clean/cheat/whatever) are no longer in effect. At one course I play there is a sign at the first and tenth tee box that says "Winter Rules" or "Summer Rules." Mike Bowen
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GYXU > Golf > Rules of Play and Ground Conditions 31 March 2005 22:19:48

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Rules of Play and Ground Conditions

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