Soldier convicted

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GYXU > Football > Soldier convicted 4 April 2005 19:11:34

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Soldier convicted
Rich Hammett 31 March 2005 19:57:33
	http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/31/germany.us.soldier.ap I still don't understand this story. At least in public, I haven't seen a shred of evidence, not a single claim, that the victim WASN'T mortally wounded before Maynulet killed him. The only problem I can see with this is that it highlights the difficulty of putting soldiers into positions they are not trained for. On the battlefield, mercy killing is a part of life, and actually is mercy. Policemen have other considerations, though. rich -- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
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Bryan S . Slick 1 April 2005 05:24:23 [ permanent link ]
	[mianderson@students.mcg.edu (mianderson@students.mcg.edu)] [31 Mar 2005 15:31:44 -0800] :> The only problem I can see with this is that it highlights :> the difficulty of putting soldiers into positions they :> are not trained for. On the battlefield, mercy killing :> is a part of life, and actually is mercy. : :What's the official military rules on this sort of thing? If I were a :soldier I would be pretty hesitant to do such a thing. He used :horrible judgement and probably got what he deserved. You can't say what you would do "if I [you] were a soldier", as you aren't one, and can't know what it is to face such a choice. I did not take part in any mercy killings, but I knew of a few, and I did not fault any of the soldiers involved in them. There is no greater love than one's love for a fellow human being that springs from nothing other than basic decency, in my opinion. We use a short term for it.. compassion. Topics such as these came up fairly often during the war. The men on the other side, though the enemy when taken as a whole, individually were/are just like us (some, not all.. depends on the Army.. but that's another topic).. soldiers in the uniform of their nation doing what they were compelled to do, be the source of that compulsion a desire to serve one's nation, threat of violence, etc. I found it easy to follow the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of Engagement, basically from that line of thought alone. Soldiers understand one another at the basest of levels.. no matter the color of the uniform or the flag that adorns it, we're all soldiers. War sucks.. it really really freaking sucks.. but there are some rules you just don't break. Allowing a fellow soldier to suffer, gasping out his last, beyond any and all hope of being saved, would be breaking one of those rules. In the end, I don't know if I would have had the strength to fire on a man in such a situation, but I would pray for the strength to do so, much in the same that I would pray an enemy soldier would do for me were I in such a situation. -- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com "There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round" [Terri Clark, "I Think The World Needs a Drink"]
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Trent Woodruff 1 April 2005 06:22:50 [ permanent link ]
	mianderson@students.mcg.edu was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>>rich hammett wrote: The only problem I can see with this is that it highlights>> the difficulty of putting soldiers into positions they>> are not trained for. On the battlefield, mercy killing>> is a part of life, and actually is mercy. What's the official military rules on this sort of thing? If I were a>soldier I would be pretty hesitant to do such a thing. He used>horrible judgement and probably got what he deserved. That's easy for you to SAY. But until you're put into such a difficult position (I have not been), you really can't say what you'd do because you truly have no idea at all. Trent Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger ...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone and a funny bone.
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Charles Beauchamp 1 April 2005 07:50:50 [ permanent link ]
	Trent Woodruff wrote:>> mianderson@students.mcg.edu was cut from the Baylor football team>> for saying...>>> rich hammett wrote:> The only problem I can see with this is that it highlights>>> the difficulty of putting soldiers into positions they>>> are not trained for. On the battlefield, mercy killing>>> is a part of life, and actually is mercy.> What's the official military rules on this sort of thing? If I were>> a>> soldier I would be pretty hesitant to do such a thing. He used>> horrible judgement and probably got what he deserved.> That's easy for you to SAY. But until you're put into such a> difficult position (I have not been), you really can't say what you'd> do because you truly have no idea at all.> While it is pretty easy to slam this guy for his presumptuous comment he did at least ask a legitimate question as regards military law. -- v/r Beau "Mercy is for the weak" - Ned Flanders
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Charles Hoequist 1 April 2005 09:36:01 [ permanent link ]
	Bryan S. Slick schrieb: ...> You can't say what you would do "if I [you] were a soldier", as you > aren't one, and can't know what it is to face such a choice. I did not > take part in any mercy killings, but I knew of a few, and I did not > fault any of the soldiers involved in them. > There is no greater love than one's love for a fellow human being that > springs from nothing other than basic decency, in my opinion. We use a > short term for it.. compassion.> Topics such as these came up fairly often during the war. The men on > the other side, though the enemy when taken as a whole, individually > were/are just like us (some, not all.. depends on the Army.. but that's > another topic).. soldiers in the uniform of their nation doing what they > were compelled to do, be the source of that compulsion a desire to serve > one's nation, threat of violence, etc.> I found it easy to follow the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of > Engagement, basically from that line of thought alone. Soldiers > understand one another at the basest of levels.. no matter the color of > the uniform or the flag that adorns it, we're all soldiers. War sucks.. > it really really freaking sucks.. but there are some rules you just > don't break. Allowing a fellow soldier to suffer, gasping out his last, > beyond any and all hope of being saved, would be breaking one of those > rules. In the end, I don't know if I would have had the strength to > fire on a man in such a situation, but I would pray for the strength to > do so, much in the same that I would pray an enemy soldier would do for > me were I in such a situation.> "We entered pell-mell into the city, and passed over the dead bodies, and some not yet dead, hearing them cry under our horses' feet ... Being come into the city ... and found four dead soldiers, and three propped against the wall, their features all changed, and they neither saw, heard, nor spake, and their clothes were still smouldering where the gunpowder had burned them. As I was looking at them with pity, there came an old soldier who asked me if there were any way to cure them. I said no. And then he went up to them and cut their throats gently, and without ill will toward them. Seeing this great cruelty, I told him he was a villain; he answered he prayed God, when he should be in such a plight, he might find someone to do the same for him, that he should not linger in misery." -Amboise Pare, _Journeys in Diverse Places_ chap.1, "The Journey to Turin. 1537". trans. Stephen Paget -ch plus ca change
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Charles Beauchamp 1 April 2005 20:43:54 [ permanent link ]
	mianderson@students.mcg.edu wrote:> Charles Beauchamp wrote:>> While it is pretty easy to slam this guy for his presumptuous>> comment he did at least ask a legitimate question as regards>> military law.> Nothing presumptuous about it. Looking back, he clearly made a> horrible decision. The fact that he has been prosecuted for it and> will spend a significant period of time in jail is proof of that.> But yeah, what's important here is the military law. It's not the job> of a single solider to decide what is a mercy killing and what isn't.> Despite the commercials, it isn't an army of one. Besides, unless you> see half of someone's brain on the ground, how can laypeople even> determine so quickly that the person is clearly terminal? Some> injuries can produce a lot of blood and a lot of apparent pain but are> not fatal even without sophisticated medical intervention. This> represents a small % no doubt and probably wasn't the case here, but I> suspect it isn't the soldier's call to make.> In case it wasn't super obvious I am agreeing with you -- v/r Beau "Mercy is for the weak" - Ned Flanders
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Xyzzy 1 April 2005 21:44:36 [ permanent link ]
	mianderson@students.mcg.edu wrote: Charles Beauchamp wrote:> While it is pretty easy to slam this guy for his presumptuous comment> he did> at least ask a legitimate question as regards military law.> Nothing presumptuous about it. Looking back, he clearly made a> horrible decision. The fact that he has been prosecuted for it and> will spend a significant period of time in jail is proof of that.> Some> injuries can produce a lot of blood and a lot of apparent pain but are> not fatal even without sophisticated medical intervention. This> represents a small % no doubt and probably wasn't the case here, but I> suspect it isn't the soldier's call to make. "Where serious questions and doubts have been raised, the president believes we ought to err on the side of life," said a White House spokeswoman, Dana Perino. What would be the action that errs on the side of life in this case? While I do agree with Slick and some others on mercy killing on the batttlefield, I also am uncomfortable with medical experts such as Slick making split second decisions on whether or not a man's wounds are indeed hopeless.
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Charles Beauchamp 2 April 2005 03:01:42 [ permanent link ]
	mianderson@students.mcg.edu wrote:> Charles Beauchamp wrote:>>> In case it wasn't super obvious I am agreeing with you>> and hence the "but yeah"....> The first part represents your reference to me being presumptuous.> Just making sure thingy. -- v/r Beau "Mercy is for the weak" - Ned Flanders
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Rich Hammett 2 April 2005 08:49:42 [ permanent link ]
	MinГ¤ suojelen sinua kaikelta, mitГ¤ ikinГ¤ keksitkin sanoa, mianderson@students.mcg.edu: Bryan S. Slick wrote:>> :>> :What's the official military rules on this sort of thing? If I were> a>> :soldier I would be pretty hesitant to do such a thing. He used>> :horrible judgement and probably got what he deserved.>> You can't say what you would do "if I [you] were a soldier", as you>> aren't one, and can't know what it is to face such a choice. before I went into a war zone I would familiarize myself with the> military code of conduct that governs this sort of thing and follow it> to avoid a court martial. Well, in general, the rules are meant to support god decision making as much as possible in the heat of battle. But if a rule tried to force me to make a dude suffer his last minutes unnecessarily, and against his own will, I'd risk a court martial. I don't see what the point of principles are otherwise. rich I did not>> take part in any mercy killings, but I knew of a few, and I did not>> fault any of the soldiers involved in them. But what's important is if they broke military law; not whether other> soldiers approved of their actions. -- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
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Bryan S . Slick 2 April 2005 10:21:52 [ permanent link ]
	[rich hammett (bubbarichau@warmmail.com)] [Sat, 02 Apr 2005 04:49:42 -0000] :But if a rule tried to force me to make a dude suffer his :last minutes unnecessarily, and against his own will, I'd :risk a court martial. I don't see what the point of rinciples are otherwise. I agree with the above 100%. There's an epigram we use about the ROE.. doesn't apply to this particular issue, but rather to questionable decisions made to save one's life and/or the lives of other soldiers. "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6." -- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com "There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round" [Terri Clark, "I Think The World Needs a Drink"]
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Bryan S . Slick 3 April 2005 01:05:08 [ permanent link ]
	[mianderson@students.mcg.edu (mianderson@students.mcg.edu)] [2 Apr 2005 12:49:27 -0800] :Bryan S. Slick wrote: :> How dare you be so blase about any decision I might have had to make, : :> with the presumption that any soldier making said decision would also :be :> so careless in such a decision? : :I don't think he was being blase and I don't really think he believes :you would be careless. It's just that you wouldn't know what you're :doing in making that call. You wouldn't know how to assess the level :of pain by looking at a wound, you wouldn't know how to assess the :severity in many cases. That's all he was saying. : :It would just open a bunch of potential problems if this kind of thing :were routinely sanctioned. I'm sure that most of the soldiers do have :good intentions, but it would give the few renegades out there an :excuse to do whatever. I agree with your points here. I do. However, we have internal controls for such things. Outside influence (civilian media, civilian court systems, civilian lawmakers) is neither needed nor welcome. There are renegades, types who skirt the legality of the ROE to satisfy their own animal aggression, in every unit and on every battlefield. It's the job of the Non-Commissioned Officer to keep such things in check and deal with them as needed. Would it surprise you to know that there are ways for dealing with such people that never make the papers? (No, I will not discuss any specific examples, so don't ask.) I don't know where else to go with this post, as the subject brings up a lot of conflicting emotions and opinions within me. I don't want soldiers taking such decisions upon themselves, but there are legitimate instances where they must, where their own moral conviction demands that they must take action. For myself, I'd say that it comes down to my beliefs about compassion. If I saw a man beyond all medical aid (and I mean way beyond.. where you don't need a medic to see that the soldier is unrecoverable), I hope that I would not hesitate. I suspect I probably would, given that he may very well be aware that he's dying and coherent enough to be offering a prayer to whatever Higher Power holds his soul.. I wouldn't want to interrupt that. I dunno.. there's just so many things to consider. I don't think this issue can be blanketed by any one Universal Truth. 'cept this one: War is evil. -- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com "A dead soldier who has given his life because of the failure of his leader is a dreadful sight before God. Like all dead soldiers, he was tired, possibly frightened to his soul, and there he is on top of all that never again to see his homeland. DonВ’t be the one who failed to instruct him properly, who failed to lead him well. Burn the midnight oil, so that you may not in later years look upon your hands and find his blood still red upon them." - James Warner Bellah
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Rich Hammett 4 April 2005 04:57:50 [ permanent link ]
	MinГ¤ suojelen sinua kaikelta, mitГ¤ ikinГ¤ keksitkin sanoa, mianderson@students.mcg.edu: It would just open a bunch of potential problems if this kind of thing> were routinely sanctioned. I'm sure that most of the soldiers do have> good intentions, but it would give the few renegades out there an> excuse to do whatever. The problem is that it's WAR, and people are gonna get killed. In borderline cases, too. That's why I'm generally against war, but once you've got one, you've got to run it "sensibly," and not letting Slick help a hemisected soldier die with a few minutes less suffering just because, in a war, somebody ELSE might kill somebody they shouldn't, is just dumn. rich -- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
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Xyzzy 4 April 2005 19:11:34 [ permanent link ]
	mianderson@students.mcg.edu wrote:> Bryan S. Slick wrote:> How dare you be so blase about any decision I might have had to make,> with the presumption that any soldier making said decision would also> so careless in such a decision?> I don't think he was being blase and I don't really think he believes> you would be careless. It's just that you wouldn't know what you're> doing in making that call. You wouldn't know how to assess the level> of pain by looking at a wound, you wouldn't know how to assess the> severity in many cases. That's all he was saying.> I was going to defend myself to Slick but you said what I wanted to say much better.
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GYXU > Football > Soldier convicted 4 April 2005 19:11:34

	see also: News from December 15, 2006		pass tests:		see also: :-) Sri Lanka Vs West Indies

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