It's the radical left, frankly, that caused me to give up on my Ph.D. at Va. Tech. It was obvious that my department wasn't really interested in any real-world use of their ideas; they just wanted to see how closely you could toe the line of their dogma.
Meanwhile, our Attorney General still supports torture.>
Hooray for our side!
So have you signed up for your torture session yet? Karl Rove decreed that anyone who said anything bad about Jeff Gannon was to be tortured since Gonzales supports torture.
MH
-- Ten of Spades Aggee Fedayeen Chief Supreme Ruler of the Obvious
"We just got outplayed today. That's the bottom line. And we got outcoached." - OU Head Coach Bob Stoops following the Texas A&M game, Nov 9, 2002
"Joel K. 'Jay' Furr" <jfurr-nospam@nospam-furrs.org> wrote in message news:Xns96139FD05853Bjfurrfurrsorg@216.168.3.44...> alicamdun@yahoo.com wrote in news:1110312903.793530.89620> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:>
Meanwhile, our Attorney General still supports torture.>>
Hooray for our side!>
So have you signed up for your torture session yet? Karl Rove decreed > that anyone who said anything bad about Jeff Gannon was to be tortured > since Gonzales supports torture.
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 9 March 2005 00:57:04 [ permanent link ]
"Michael" <mdw3removethistoemail333@cornell.edu> wrote in news:x9oXd.11052 $Zm4.5722@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:
It's the radical left, frankly, that caused me to give up on my Ph.D. at>> Va. Tech.>
You blame "the department" because you didn't write your diss?
Pretty much. I couldn't see me asking *any* of my professors to be my committee chair, and I'd gotten pretty sick of sitting in class listening to the other students kowtow to the most absurd, crazy, out-there beliefs.
Damon Scott Hynes 9 March 2005 01:00:28 [ permanent link ]
Bitter. Why shouldn't academia compete in the marketplace of ideas like every other endeavor? Churchill's word-view might go down well in Paris, so why doesn't he load up the truck and move to the Sorbonne?
The key words in this article, which everyone is skipping are:
"let Mitchell know that CU would not be renewing his contract after this year"
IOW, unlike Churchhill, this particular martyr is NOT tenured, if he was there would be no contract renewal to discuss. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. It's a disingenuous attempt to make it look like an apples to apples comparison.
Non tenured faculty are usually let go if they don't make tenure in a certain time. Since this guy has been teaching at CU for "more than 20 years" according to the article, I'd say he got a lot of time, and never made it. I'd even venture that he was given a lot more time than other faculty that fails to make tenure.
They probably kept him on as long as they did because of his highly-rated teaching skills, but the reality is that eventually that isn't enough. We can debate whether it's right that excellent teachers who don't produce in the research and grant attracing arenas get short shrift, but that's how it's always been in academe, for liberals and conservatives alike.
"xyzzy" <invalid@addr.net> wrote in message news:422e19d1_4@news1.prserv.net...> alicamdun@yahoo.com wrote:>
They probably kept him on as long as they did because of his highly-rated > teaching skills, but the reality is that eventually that isn't enough. We > can debate whether it's right that excellent teachers who don't produce in > the research and grant attracing arenas get short shrift, but that's how > it's always been in academe, for liberals and conservatives alike.
A lot of universities are moving away from tenured faculty toward lecturers so they pay less salaries and benefits. Again, we don't have enough info about the situation to know in this case.
Bitter. Why shouldn't academia compete in the marketplace of ideas> like every other endeavor? Churchill's word-view might go down well in> Paris, so why doesn't he load up the truck and move to the Sorbonne?>
Minä suojelen sinua kaikelta, mitä ikinä keksitkin sanoa, Joel K. 'Jay' Furr:> "Michael" <mdw3removethistoemail333@cornell.edu> wrote in news:x9oXd.11052> $Zm4.5722@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:
It's the radical left, frankly, that caused me to give up on my Ph.D. at>>> Va. Tech.>>
You blame "the department" because you didn't write your diss?
Pretty much. I couldn't see me asking *any* of my professors to be my > committee chair, and I'd gotten pretty sick of sitting in class listening > to the other students kowtow to the most absurd, crazy, out-there beliefs.
You're not fooling us, we know your subject was mathematics.
rich
-- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
What a lousy columnist Hansanyi is. He doesn't>even mention what the book was, what course it was>used in and in what context, etc.
In the context of your oh-so-beloved academic freedom, as long as he's not using a calculus textbook in a history class and as long as he's not using literature from the KKK or the Palestinian Authority (but, come to think of it, the latter would be perfectly OK with today's academes), shouldn't he have the freedom to choose his teaching materials?
John Rogers AU Class of 1985 The Al Del Greco of Atlanta
"Subordination is the natural order: there is subordination in Heaven - Thrones and Dominions take precendence over Powers and Principalities, Archangels and ordinary foremast angels; and so it is in the Navy. You have come to the wrong shop for anarchy, brother."
The key words in this article, which everyone is skipping are:>
"let Mitchell know that CU would not be renewing his contract after this >year">
IOW, unlike Churchhill, this particular martyr is NOT tenured
Gosh... I wonder why? He must have been a horrible teacher (student evaluations withstanding, of course).
John Rogers AU Class of 1985 The Al Del Greco of Atlanta
"Subordination is the natural order: there is subordination in Heaven - Thrones and Dominions take precendence over Powers and Principalities, Archangels and ordinary foremast angels; and so it is in the Navy. You have come to the wrong shop for anarchy, brother."
OK. Hold. Enough. I've had fun, too much fun, making jokes during this fandango-in-snarls, but it's become a little too icky, psychologically speaking, for me.
Damon Scott Hynes 9 March 2005 03:59:27 [ permanent link ]
Bitter. Why shouldn't academia compete in the marketplace of ideas>> like every other endeavor? Churchill's word-view might go down well in>> Paris, so why doesn't he load up the truck and move to the Sorbonne?>>
Funy stuff.
Made you laugh so hard you forgot to answer.
-- "When the going gets weird, the weird eat their .45"
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 9 March 2005 04:27:01 [ permanent link ]
"Michael" <mdw3removethistoemail333@cornell.edu> wrote in news:gQoXd.11058 $Zm4.1596@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:
Seriously, there was not one good professor there? What field> and year?
Technically, there was one professor I respected, quite a lot in fact. But he'd developed a serious jones for French constitutional law in the last year or two before I got to the pondering-the-dissertation point, and I had NO interest in doing a dissertation on French constitutional law. The others I had little or no respect in; in any field there are theoreticians and there are practically-minded folks, and the professors at my department were SO far removed from actual practice of their ideas that I genuinely doubted that any of them would last more than a week if they had to actually go work in the field. More than that I'd prefer not to say.
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 9 March 2005 04:27:37 [ permanent link ]
rich hammett <bubbarichau@warmmail.com> wrote in news:112s7h63uv57h60@corp.supernews.com:
Pretty much. I couldn't see me asking *any* of my professors to be>> my committee chair, and I'd gotten pretty sick of sitting in class>> listening to the other students kowtow to the most absurd, crazy,>> out-there beliefs. >
You're not fooling us, we know your subject was mathematics.
A sub-field of political science, actually, but never mind.
The key words in this article, which everyone is skipping are:>> >
"let Mitchell know that CU would not be renewing his contract after>> >this year">> >
IOW, unlike Churchhill, this particular martyr is NOT tenured>>
Gosh... I wonder why? He must have been a horrible teacher (student>> evaluations withstanding, of course).>
What's it to you? I thought Republicans were> for hiring and firing at will, with no outside> interference. Oh that's right, you're not> a Republican, are you. I keep forgetting.>
At will, with cause -- like embarassing the University.
But I guess they thought a conservative Christian prof did just that. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Well, look. I mean, is he gonna be able to chase us? Cause if I woke up lookin' like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it. -- Master Shake
Bryan S . Slick 9 March 2005 05:54:16 [ permanent link ]
[Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)] [Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:39:00 GMT]
: But no matter. I guess you must have missed my :first post to Mr. Rogers on this topic. Here, don't :bother googling it, I'll repost it for you: : :> Academic freedom? He's not tenured, dumnass. :> Academic freedom does not apply.
It's one of the stupidest statements you've ever made.
Re-posting it wasn't the best idea, either.
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
He's not tenured, dumnass.> Academic freedom does not apply.
Bwahawhawhawhawhaw!
-- I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.
Meanwhile, our Attorney General still supports torture.> >>
Hooray for our side!> >
So have you signed up for your torture session yet? Karl Rove decreed> > that anyone who said anything bad about Jeff Gannon was to be tortured> > since Gonzales supports torture.>
The key words in this article, which everyone is skipping are:>>
"let Mitchell know that CU would not be renewing his contract after this >>year">>
IOW, unlike Churchhill, this particular martyr is NOT tenured>
Gosh... I wonder why? He must have been a horrible teacher (student> evaluations withstanding, of course).
Probably because he didn't produce grants or signficant published research.
Unfortunately being a good teacher isn't very high on the "things you need to do to get tenure" in most universities. But you knew that beause it was in my post but you snipped it so you could pretend you didn't know it and make your remark.
[Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)]> [Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:39:00 GMT]>
: But no matter. I guess you must have missed my> :first post to Mr. Rogers on this topic. Here, don't> :bother googling it, I'll repost it for you:> :> :> Academic freedom? He's not tenured, dumnass.> :> Academic freedom does not apply.>
It's one of the stupidest statements you've ever made.>
Re-posting it wasn't the best idea, either.>
The fact that Jaros agrees with you on this should give you pause.
It was obvious that my department wasn't really interested in>any real-world use of their ideas; they just wanted to see how closely
could toe the line of their dogma.
That's academia for you. You have to just dig in and get through it. It's part of the process. Sometimes you'll find out later that some of them weren't that way at all, but they were just testing you. Either you toe the line to get out of there, or you buck the trend and back it up and defend it.
You almost have to go into industry to find people interested in real-world use of ideas, though there are some exceptions.
Minä suojelen sinua kaikelta, mitä ikinä keksitkin sanoa, RaginPage:>>It was obvious that my department wasn't really interested in>>any real-world use of their ideas; they just wanted to see how closely> you>>could toe the line of their dogma.
That's academia for you. You have to just dig in and get through it.> It's part of the process. Sometimes you'll find out later that some of> them weren't that way at all, but they were just testing you. Either> you toe the line to get out of there, or you buck the trend and back it> up and defend it.
And then one day they wake up and they are Secretary of State.
You almost have to go into industry to find people interested in> real-world use of ideas, though there are some exceptions.
My sample is biased towards engineering and science, but just about all I've ever seen professors concentrate on in their research is real-world applications. Funding, donchaknow.
rich -- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
Minä suojelen sinua kaikelta, mitä ikinä keksitkin sanoa, James Schrumpf:> How do you prefer your martini, Mr. kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Ralph> Kennedy)? Shaken, or stirred?
John Rogers <tiger7_88@yahoo.com> writes:>>> Yeah, xyzzy <invalid@addr.net>, well... that's just like... your>>> opinion man.>>> >alicamdun@yahoo.com wrote:>>> >
The key words in this article, which everyone is skipping are:>>> >
"let Mitchell know that CU would not be renewing his contract after>>> >this year">>> >
IOW, unlike Churchhill, this particular martyr is NOT tenured>>>
Gosh... I wonder why? He must have been a horrible teacher (student>>> evaluations withstanding, of course).>>
What's it to you? I thought Republicans were>> for hiring and firing at will, with no outside>> interference. Oh that's right, you're not>> a Republican, are you. I keep forgetting.>>
At will, with cause -- like embarassing the University.
No, that reason is EXPLICITLY ruled out by the tenure system.
But I guess they thought a conservative Christian prof did just that.
Well, it is considered abuse to keep somebody around for 20 years with no tenure, just like post-doc abuse.
rich -- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 9 March 2005 22:20:09 [ permanent link ]
"RaginPage" <btpage0630@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1110389461.175592.186290 @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
That's academia for you. You have to just dig in and get through it.> It's part of the process. Sometimes you'll find out later that some of> them weren't that way at all, but they were just testing you. Either> you toe the line to get out of there, or you buck the trend and back it> up and defend it.>
You almost have to go into industry to find people interested in> real-world use of ideas, though there are some exceptions.
Ultimately, it was my fault. I didn't want an ivory-tower look at my field; I wanted a very hard-nose applied-use department, and I stupidly didn't go after what I wanted.
Ultimately, I'm happy with the way things turned out -- I have a masters I never use, and I work as a technical trainer and programmer. Oddly, I'm not the only one in my department; the guy who sat next to me until recently had the exact same masters (from a different department) and wound up in the exact same job path as I did. It works out that way sometimes.
Bryan S . Slick 9 March 2005 22:26:05 [ permanent link ]
[xyzzy (invalid@addr.net)] [Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:56:48 -0500]
:Bryan S. Slick wrote: : :> [Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)] :> [Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:39:00 GMT] :> :> : But no matter. I guess you must have missed my :> :first post to Mr. Rogers on this topic. Here, don't :> :bother googling it, I'll repost it for you: :> : :> :> Academic freedom? He's not tenured, dumnass. :> :> Academic freedom does not apply. :> :> It's one of the stupidest statements you've ever made. :> :> Re-posting it wasn't the best idea, either. :> : :The fact that Jaros agrees with you on this should give you pause. : :HTH.
Generally speaking, sure.. it's granted that Jaros is an idiot.
However, even an idiot can be right once in a while. To suggest, as Ralph has done, that academic freedom is something that only the high and mighty tenured professors are entitled to is ridiculous. It was an asinine statement, no matter who said it or who called him on it.
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
Bryan S . Slick 9 March 2005 22:26:56 [ permanent link ]
[Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)] [Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:49:27 GMT]
:"StephenJ" <cjones@corpus.com> writes: :> > He's not tenured, dumnass. :> > Academic freedom does not apply. :> :> Bwahawhawhawhawhaw! : : Look at the company you've chosen to keep :on this one, Bryan.
See my reply to Mike Fox.
(Jaros: blind.squirrel.nut.etc)
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
It's hard to believe that a guy who in 1998 won a prestigious teaching award> is suddenly a poor teacher. It smells fishy...
Who awards this prestigious teaching award? What is it based on? You're not just trusting some newspaper COLUMNIST for your facts, are you?
Oh, wait, I finally found it...it's a student-chosen, student-run award program.
Is it possible to be a popular teacher and not be an excellent teacher? I remember the criteria _I_ used to choose professors for those awards in college...
rich -- -to reply, it's hot not warm +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett / "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world; \ than the pride that divides / when a colorful rag is unfurled."
Is it possible to be a popular teacher and not be an >excellent> teacher?
Of course. But, that's probably *not* the way CU sees it. At most schools, the trend is for student evaluations to be given much more weight today than in the past. The biggest component of overall "teacher quality" evaluations at most schools these days is student evaluations. Peer and Chair evaluations count, but are typically given lesser weight (and often for good reason - a chair or peer may have little idea of what their fellow prof actually is doing in the classroom).
This flows from the "strategic planning" model that many accreditation agencies have adopted, one that views students as 'customers' to be 'satisfied'...
The key words in this article, which everyone is skipping are:>>>
"let Mitchell know that CU would not be renewing his contract after this >>>year">>>
IOW, unlike Churchhill, this particular martyr is NOT tenured>>
Gosh... I wonder why? He must have been a horrible teacher (student>> evaluations withstanding, of course).>
Probably because he didn't produce grants or signficant published research.>
Unfortunately being a good teacher isn't very high on the "things you >need to do to get tenure" in most universities. But you knew that beause >it was in my post but you snipped it so you could pretend you didn't >know it and make your remark.
Thank you.
MWHID.
John Rogers AU Class of 1985 The Al Del Greco of Atlanta
"Subordination is the natural order: there is subordination in Heaven - Thrones and Dominions take precendence over Powers and Principalities, Archangels and ordinary foremast angels; and so it is in the Navy. You have come to the wrong shop for anarchy, brother."
It's hard to believe that a guy who in 1998 won a prestigious teaching award>> is suddenly a poor teacher. It smells fishy...>
Who awards this prestigious teaching award? What is it based on?>You're not just trusting some newspaper COLUMNIST for your facts,>are you?>
Oh, wait, I finally found it...it's a student-chosen, student-run>award program.>
Is it possible to be a popular teacher and not be an excellent>teacher? I remember the criteria _I_ used to choose professors>for those awards in college...
Well, then we are different. Because I always favored the good teachers who were also good people. Not given that option, I would always favor the hard-assed sumbitch good teachers over the helluva-guy airhead know-nothings.
John Rogers AU Class of 1985 The Al Del Greco of Atlanta
"Subordination is the natural order: there is subordination in Heaven - Thrones and Dominions take precendence over Powers and Principalities, Archangels and ordinary foremast angels; and so it is in the Navy. You have come to the wrong shop for anarchy, brother."
Ralph Kennedy wrote:> Bryan S. Slick <onyx_hokie@yahoo.com> writes:> > [xyzzy (invalid@addr.net)]> > :Bryan S. Slick wrote:> > :> [Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)]> > :>> > :> : But no matter. I guess you must have missed my> > :> :first post to Mr. Rogers on this topic. Here, don't> > :> :bother googling it, I'll repost it for you:> > :> :> > :> :> Academic freedom? He's not tenured, dumnass.> > :> :> Academic freedom does not apply.> > :>> > :> It's one of the stupidest statements you've ever made.> > :>> > :> Re-posting it wasn't the best idea, either.> > :> > :The fact that Jaros agrees with you on this should give you pause.> > :> > :HTH.> >
Generally speaking, sure.. it's granted that Jaros is an idiot.> >
However, even an idiot can be right once in a while. To suggest,
Ralph has done, that academic freedom is something that only the
high> > and mighty tenured professors are entitled to is ridiculous.>
Well since we seem to be copying Jaros today,> Bryan: LOL!!>
Sorry, Bryan, barring any additional legislation> a particular state may have on the books (at least> some lawyers have argued *all* Colorado state employess> have freedom of speech immunity from firing, not just> tenured professors), only tenured professors have the> signed the contract granting them academic freedom.> It's a simple matter of law one way or the other. What> you or I or anyone else thinks about who morally> "deserves" or is "entitled to" (now there's an> interesting word, "entitled"--Republicans hate> entitlements) academic freedom is totally irrelevant.>
Would it be nice if all faculty had academic> freedom, even without being tenured? Sure. But that's> not the point, now is it. The only thing that is> relevant is what the law says Colorado can do about> firing either Churchill or Mitchell. And my pointing> out that fact is not "assinine," as you put it. It is> realistic.
Just curious, is a tenured professor allowed to go into a crowded auditorium and yell "fire"? (assume a stampede to the exits follows)
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 10 March 2005 03:50:39 [ permanent link ]
"lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com> wrote in news:1110411427.540285.205710 @l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
Just curious, is a tenured professor allowed to go into a> crowded auditorium and yell "fire"? (assume a stampede to> the exits follows)
Depends on whether the auditorium is full of giant sentient leeches, or humans, or what. And it depends on whether he shouts out "fire" in English, Lower Slobbovian, or a lesser language like French. I think in certain cases you're eligible for free burial.
I don't know the specifics at CU, but under ordinary circumstances this> is incorrect. Ordinarily, all teachers at a college are entitled to> academic freedom protections.
Of course. At Arizona State, for example, academic freedom w/regard to teaching applies to people appointed as lecturer, senior lecturer, instructor, assistant professor, associate professor, professor, or Regents Professor.
Only the latter three are likely to be tenured.
Please disregard lunatic rantings of the kennedy kind.
-- I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.
Ralph Kennedy wrote:> "lein" <boomer_the_cat@my-deja.com> writes:> > Ralph Kennedy wrote:> > > Bryan S. Slick <onyx_hokie@yahoo.com> writes:> > > > [xyzzy (invalid@addr.net)]> > > > :Bryan S. Slick wrote:> > > > :> [Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)]> > > > :>> > > > :> : But no matter. I guess you must have missed my> > > > :> :first post to Mr. Rogers on this topic. Here, don't> > > > :> :bother googling it, I'll repost it for you:> > > > :> :> > > > :> :> Academic freedom? He's not tenured, dumnass.> > > > :> :> Academic freedom does not apply.> > > > :>> > > > :> It's one of the stupidest statements you've ever made.> > > > :>> > > > :> Re-posting it wasn't the best idea, either.> > > > :> > > > :The fact that Jaros agrees with you on this should give you pause.> > > > :> > > > :HTH.> > > >
Generally speaking, sure.. it's granted that Jaros is an idiot.> > > >
However, even an idiot can be right once in a while. To
suggest,> > as> > > > Ralph has done, that academic freedom is something that only
high> > > > and mighty tenured professors are entitled to is ridiculous.> > >
Well since we seem to be copying Jaros today,> > > Bryan: LOL!!> > >
Sorry, Bryan, barring any additional legislation> > > a particular state may have on the books (at least> > > some lawyers have argued *all* Colorado state employess> > > have freedom of speech immunity from firing, not just> > > tenured professors), only tenured professors have the> > > signed the contract granting them academic freedom.> > > It's a simple matter of law one way or the other. What> > > you or I or anyone else thinks about who morally> > > "deserves" or is "entitled to" (now there's an> > > interesting word, "entitled"--Republicans hate> > > entitlements) academic freedom is totally irrelevant.> > >
Would it be nice if all faculty had academic> > > freedom, even without being tenured? Sure. But that's> > > not the point, now is it. The only thing that is> > > relevant is what the law says Colorado can do about> > > firing either Churchill or Mitchell. And my pointing> > > out that fact is not "assinine," as you put it. It is> > > realistic.> >
Just curious, is a tenured professor allowed to go into a> > crowded auditorium and yell "fire"? (assume a stampede to> > the exits follows)>
Marty McMahone 10 March 2005 06:24:24 [ permanent link ]
"rich hammett" <bubbarichau@warmmail.com> wrote in message news:112ueubfpgvu139@corp.supernews.com...> > You almost have to go into industry to find people interested in> > real-world use of ideas, though there are some exceptions.>
My sample is biased towards engineering and science, but just> about all I've ever seen professors concentrate on in their> research is real-world applications. Funding, donchaknow.
Science and engineering shouldn't even be considered part of the same universe as the humanities. I continue to be amazed at the things I hear presented at the one conference I still attend. Practical application is just not even a consideration.
Randolph M. Jones 10 March 2005 18:09:11 [ permanent link ]
Ralph Kennedy wrote:> "Randolph M. Jones" <rjones@colby.edu> writes:>
Ralph Kennedy wrote:>>
Bryan S. Slick <onyx_hokie@yahoo.com> writes:>>>
[xyzzy (invalid@addr.net)]>>>>:Bryan S. Slick wrote:>>>>:> [Ralph Kennedy (kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu)]>>>>:> >>>>:> : But no matter. I guess you must have missed my>>>>:> :first post to Mr. Rogers on this topic. Here, don't>>>>:> :bother googling it, I'll repost it for you:>>>>:> :>>>>:> :> Academic freedom? He's not tenured, dumnass.>>>>:> :> Academic freedom does not apply.>>>>:> >>>>:> It's one of the stupidest statements you've ever made.>>>>:> >>>>:> Re-posting it wasn't the best idea, either.>>>>:>>>>:The fact that Jaros agrees with you on this should give you pause.>>>>:>>>>:HTH.>>>>
Generally speaking, sure.. it's granted that Jaros is an idiot.>>>>
However, even an idiot can be right once in a while. To suggest, as >>>>Ralph has done, that academic freedom is something that only the high >>>>and mighty tenured professors are entitled to is ridiculous.>>>
Well since we seem to be copying Jaros today,>>>Bryan: LOL!!>>>
Sorry, Bryan, barring any additional legislation>>>a particular state may have on the books (at least>>>some lawyers have argued *all* Colorado state employess>>>have freedom of speech immunity from firing, not just>>>tenured professors), only tenured professors have the>>>signed the contract granting them academic freedom.>>
I don't know the specifics at CU, but under ordinary circumstances this >>is incorrect. Ordinarily, all teachers at a college are entitled to >>academic freedom protections. In practice, though, I'm sure it figures >>into non-tenure-track cases sometimes. For a tenured professor, the >>standard is that you need a *really* good reason to fire them. For >>non-tenured faculty, it's merely a matter of not renewing the contract.>
And if they can still be let go at will> when the yearly contract is up, that is "academic> freedom" exactly how, other than some sort of> useless lip service?
It means he can't be censored or fired for things he does in the course of his academic duties. Not having a contract renewed is different from being fired.
-- I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.
Trent Woodruff 11 March 2005 00:01:15 [ permanent link ]
Randolph M. Jones was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>>Ralph Kennedy wrote:
And if they can still be let go at will>> when the yearly contract is up, that is "academic>> freedom" exactly how, other than some sort of>> useless lip service?
It means he can't be censored or fired for things he does in the course >of his academic duties. Not having a contract renewed is different from >being fired.
While there may be a TECHNICALITY sort of difference, in the real world, they're exactly the same thing.
Trent Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger
...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone and a funny bone.
Randolph M. Jones 11 March 2005 00:17:42 [ permanent link ]
Trent Woodruff wrote:>>Randolph M. Jones was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>>
Ralph Kennedy wrote:>>
And if they can still be let go at will>>>when the yearly contract is up, that is "academic>>>freedom" exactly how, other than some sort of>>>useless lip service?>>
It means he can't be censored or fired for things he does in the course >>of his academic duties. Not having a contract renewed is different from >>being fired.>
While there may be a TECHNICALITY sort of difference, in the real> world, they're exactly the same thing.
In some ways they are the same. But there are many significant differences. Whether those differences count as technicalities is probably somewhat subjective.
In the current context, if someone got fired in the middle of a contract at an academic institution, it would put a significant black mark on the record that would make it difficult to get another academic job.
If someone finished a contract and the contract simply wasn't renewed, it's entirely likely that it wouldn't even come up as an issue in future job interviews.
In the current context, if someone got fired in the middle of a contract> at an academic institution, it would put a significant black mark on the> record that would make it difficult to get another academic job.>
If someone finished a contract and the contract simply wasn't renewed,> it's entirely likely that it wouldn't even come up as an issue in future> job interviews.
Yes, in this case, an instructor getting fired in the middle of a contract could only be "for cause", i.e., something that the contract-holder did that violated the contract, and therefore would be putatively negative, whereas not getting renewed could be due to factors beyond the contract-holder's control and therefore not necessarily reflect poorly on him (like the U suffers a budget crunch and the only people who can be "chopped" are non-tenured instructors).
Though you take it too far when you say it probably wouldn't come up as an issue. It's probable that a future job interviewer would ask (or otherwise investigate) why the contract wasn't renewed, since the non-renewal could be a result of unsatisfactory performance.
And if we're talking about a tenure-track faculty who comes up for tenure and is denied, then the next school he applies to is surely going to want to know why he didn't get tenure.
-- I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.
Trent Woodruff 11 March 2005 01:30:53 [ permanent link ]
Randolph M. Jones was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>>Trent Woodruff wrote:>>>Randolph M. Jones was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>>>>Ralph Kennedy wrote:
And if they can still be let go at will>>>>when the yearly contract is up, that is "academic>>>>freedom" exactly how, other than some sort of>>>>useless lip service?
It means he can't be censored or fired for things he does in the course >>>of his academic duties. Not having a contract renewed is different from >>>being fired.
While there may be a TECHNICALITY sort of difference, in the real>> world, they're exactly the same thing.
In some ways they are the same. But there are many significant >differences. Whether those differences count as technicalities is >probably somewhat subjective.>In the current context, if someone got fired in the middle of a contract >at an academic institution, it would put a significant black mark on the >record that would make it difficult to get another academic job.>If someone finished a contract and the contract simply wasn't renewed, >it's entirely likely that it wouldn't even come up as an issue in future >job interviews.
Ok, I'll buy that. You're probably right. Or at least if it did come up, it probably wouldn't be looked at terribly seriously.
Trent Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger
...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone and a funny bone.
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 11 March 2005 02:04:37 [ permanent link ]
kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Ralph Kennedy) wrote in news:ID5or7.5nE@asuvax.eas.asu.edu:
"Joel K. 'Jay' Furr" <jfurr-nospam@nospam-furrs.org> writes:>> kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Ralph Kennedy) wrote:>>
Let me see if I got this straight. You get>> > a RUTSIE for highest noise-to-signal ratio in>> > rsfc, so I should apologize.>> >
Brilliant as usual, Stephen!>>
Out of curiousity, why do you respond to Jaros? >
Bryan has asked me the same thing. It is indeed> a very good question that I would be hard pressed to> answer satisfactorily.
Let's change the subject:
If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into outer space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that Boston album, which would you choose, and why?
Bryan S . Slick 11 March 2005 02:08:37 [ permanent link ]
[Joel K. 'Jay' Furr (jfurr-nospam@nospam-furrs.org)] [Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:04:37 -0000]
:If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into outer :space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that Boston :album, which would you choose, and why? : Winslow, AZ
Why do you hate Bill Engvall?
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 11 March 2005 02:22:03 [ permanent link ]
Bryan S. Slick <onyx_hokie@yahoo.com> wrote in news:MPG.1c9a8f74e081ed1398c95e@news-40.giganews.com:
:If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into outer >:space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that Boston >:album, which would you choose, and why?>:>:* Winslow, AZ>
Why do you hate Bill Engvall?
I don't.
I did, however, once visit Winslow and stood on the official Corner. Pretty neat place.
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 11 March 2005 02:47:19 [ permanent link ]
kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Ralph Kennedy) wrote in news:ID5q3q.6Cs@asuvax.eas.asu.edu:
That would depend. I assume that I must travel> on the space journey. That eliminates Winslow right> off the bat (and if I wasn't going on the space journey,> that would make Winslow the automatic winner). Do we> get to come back after a few weeks or months? If so,> I'd say Sedona, since it's the most beautiful town.> If not, I'd say Tempe, so we'd have a never-ending> supply of HAWT1E5!@!11!!!>
You're right, this *is* a lot more interesting> than talking to Jaros.
Well, when I first posed the question, I was thinking in terms of you *not* going along, but having the ability to send one of those three towns off into space, presumably never to return.
But sure, you can go along if you want. If you take Tempe, though, you'd have the Cardinals stuck in there with you, depending on the launch date. If we held off blastoff for a couple of years they'd be in Glendale and you'd be safe.
Would it be worth having the HAWT1E5!@!11!!! along if you had to put up with the Arizona Cardinals as well?
:> Out of curiousity, why do you respond to Jaros?> :> :Because he's a glutton for punishment...?>
Pretty much, but not in the way you think.
...? Exactly in the way i think.
-- I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.
Bryan S . Slick 11 March 2005 03:38:26 [ permanent link ]
[StephenJ (cjones@corpus.com)] [Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:18:03 -0600]
:> :> Out of curiousity, why do you respond to Jaros? :> : :> :Because he's a glutton for punishment...? :> :> Pretty much, but not in the way you think. : :...? Exactly in the way i think.
No, not at all in the way you think.
Why anyone subjects themself to your nonsensical crap is unknowable.
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
:> Pretty much, but not in the way you think.> :> :...? Exactly in the way i think.>
No, not at all in the way you think.
Yes, all all all in the way that i think.
Why anyone subjects themself to your nonsensical crap is unknowable.
you're not much less a glutton for punishment than kennedy is...in exactly the way that i think.
-- I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.
Bryan S . Slick 11 March 2005 03:45:27 [ permanent link ]
[StephenJ (cjones@corpus.com)] [Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:43:05 -0600]
:> :> Pretty much, but not in the way you think. :> : :> :...? Exactly in the way i think. :> :> No, not at all in the way you think. : :Yes, all all all in the way that i think. : :> Why anyone subjects themself to your nonsensical crap is unknowable. : :you're not much less a glutton for punishment than kennedy is...in exactly :the way that i think.
Weird. You acknowledge that you're a worthless waste with an inexplicably bloated ego.. and yet make no effort to change that.
Just plain weird.
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
Trent Woodruff 11 March 2005 03:57:46 [ permanent link ]
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...
Let's change the subject:>If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into outer >space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that Boston >album, which would you choose, and why?
I read a science fiction series that was about this actually...cities that had "deserted" Earth and were flying around in space making their way like that.
Trent Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger
...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone and a funny bone.
Charles Hoequist 11 March 2005 06:32:59 [ permanent link ]
Trent Woodruff schrieb:>>Joel K. 'Jay' Furr was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>
Let's change the subject:>>If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into outer >>space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that Boston >>album, which would you choose, and why?>
I read a science fiction series that was about this actually...cities> that had "deserted" Earth and were flying around in space making their> way like that.>
Trent> Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger>
...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone and a funny bone.
James Blish, _Cities in Flight_, four-book series.
James Schrumpf 11 March 2005 07:21:21 [ permanent link ]
How do you prefer your martini, Mr. charles hoequist <ceh401@jaguar.usouth1.edu>? Shaken, or stirred?
Trent Woodruff schrieb:>>>Joel K. 'Jay' Furr was cut from the Baylor football team for>>>saying... >>
Let's change the subject:>>>If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into>>>outer space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that>>>Boston album, which would you choose, and why?>>
I read a science fiction series that was about this actually...cities>> that had "deserted" Earth and were flying around in space making>> their way like that.>>
Trent>> Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger>>
...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone>> and a funny bone. >
James Blish, _Cities in Flight_, four-book series.>
-ch> captivated me at the time>
Ah, spindizzies.
I loved the description of "the big crunch" at the end of the last book.
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Well, look. I mean, is he gonna be able to chase us? Cause if I woke up lookin' like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it. -- Master Shake
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 11 March 2005 07:29:05 [ permanent link ]
woodruffs@cableone.net (Trent Woodruff) wrote in news:4230de4c.10326538 @news.cableone.net:
Let's change the subject:>>If you had to choose one of the following cities to blast off into outer >>space aboard a giant spacegoing guitar a la the cover of that Boston >>album, which would you choose, and why?>
I read a science fiction series that was about this actually...cities> that had "deserted" Earth and were flying around in space making their> way like that.
Cities in Flight. Blish. Got it right here. (When I gave away my hundreds and hundreds of old science fiction books on the grounds that I couldn't stand the idea of boredly re-reading them for the six thousandth time, I kept Cities in Flight.)
Joel K. 'Jay' Furr 11 March 2005 21:24:41 [ permanent link ]
kennedy@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Ralph Kennedy) wrote in news:ID761M.Jy7 @asuvax.eas.asu.edu:
Sure...the Cardinals could probably build up a good rivalry with Tempe>> > High School.>>
TMML.>
Let's not get overgiddy here. Last year, there> were 12 teams with a record the same or worse than> the Cardinals. So that puts them at the lower end> of the middle third of teams. Pretty sucky, but> not as bad as the can't-beat-a-high-school level.
But year after year, on average, they are d00med. And will be until they move back to Racine.
Trent Woodruff 12 March 2005 04:47:45 [ permanent link ]
Ralph Kennedy was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...>>"Joel K. 'Jay' Furr" <jfurr-nospam@nospam-furrs.org> writes:>>> woodruffs@cableone.net (Trent Woodruff) wrote:>>>>Joel K. 'Jay' Furr was cut from the Baylor football team for saying...
Would it be worth having the HAWT1E5!@!11!!! along if you had to put up >>>>with the Arizona Cardinals as well?
Sure...the Cardinals could probably build up a good rivalry with Tempe>>> High School.
TMML.
Let's not get overgiddy here. Last year, there>were 12 teams with a record the same or worse than>the Cardinals. So that puts them at the lower end>of the middle third of teams. Pretty sucky, but>not as bad as the can't-beat-a-high-school level.
I didn't say they COULDN'T beat them. <chuckle>
Trent Chairborne "Nine of Diamonds" Ranger
...To be a great NCO, you need three bones: a backbone, a wishbone and a funny bone.
