Re: A look back in time (Nobody Rembers Who Finished 2nd!)
Your Pal... Sal 30 September 2005 01:33:06
If you're 1 point ahead of him, and if you will win if both of you fail> to finish, then yes. But this has been done to death - MS admitted on > television in an interview with Jeremy Clarkson for British TV that he > deliberately drove into Villeneuve in an attempt to remove him from the > racetrack. There is no doubt in my mind that he had no second thoughts > about driving into Hill's car either - as many have said, the example was > set by Senna, and if Senna can be allowed to get away with it...
I defer to you European blokes...
We don't get much coverage of the sport here un the land left handers.
But I'm glad you mentioned Senna for he had the same "passion" for winning.
MS has made plenty of sloppy and stupid mistakes - for example, driving > clean off the road at Monaco in the wet whilst driving for Benetton. He > has usually had the fortune of doing it completely on his own, but more > recently he has taken others with him, for example Webber in Turkey, > Montoya in the Monaco tunnel.
These incidents are bound to happen it's just that his detractors always amp- lify his rides for better or worse.
The fact renains he is lauded by every one who is anyone in the F-1community
Schumacher, on the other hand, has been known to angle his car towards the > dirty side, so that the driver who qualified 2nd has two choices - crash, > or back off.
Isn't that what racing is all about... keep- ing the other guy 2nd!?! Nobody remem- bers who finished 2nd.!
Phil Newnham 30 September 2005 02:03:38 [ permanent link ]
Your Pal... Sal wrote:>>If you're 1 point ahead of him, and if you will win if both of you fail>>to finish, then yes. But this has been done to death - MS admitted on >>television in an interview with Jeremy Clarkson for British TV that he >>deliberately drove into Villeneuve in an attempt to remove him from the >>racetrack. There is no doubt in my mind that he had no second thoughts >>about driving into Hill's car either - as many have said, the example was >>set by Senna, and if Senna can be allowed to get away with it...>
I defer to you European blokes...>
We don't get much coverage of the> sport here un the land left handers.>
But I'm glad you mentioned Senna> for he had the same "passion" for> winning.
Senna's case was slightly different. Not that it excuses his actions, but he was denied a championship by a certain Frenchman (not Prost, although it was Prost that won) in an underhanded and unfair matter. I think he thought that the rules had changed and he felt justified in playing by the new rules. He wasn't stopped because they felt guilty over the previous years result, IMO. But in not stopping him, a dangerous precedent was set.
MS has made plenty of sloppy and stupid mistakes - for example, driving >>clean off the road at Monaco in the wet whilst driving for Benetton. He >>has usually had the fortune of doing it completely on his own, but more >>recently he has taken others with him, for example Webber in Turkey, >>Montoya in the Monaco tunnel.>
These incidents are bound to happen> it's just that his detractors always amp-> lify his rides for better or worse.>
The fact renains he is lauded by every> one who is anyone in the F-1community
I will quite happily laud his ability to drive very very fast. I will not ever respect him as a *racing* driver.
Schumacher, on the other hand, has been known to angle his car towards the >>dirty side, so that the driver who qualified 2nd has two choices - crash, >>or back off.>
Isn't that what racing is all about... keep-> ing the other guy 2nd!?! Nobody remem-> bers who finished 2nd.!
I have seen racing drivers actually giving each other racing room. They overtook and then kept the other guy behind them by simply being faster and did not feel the need to block or drive into their competitors. I wish that were still the case. The sad thing is, MS is probably so talented that he would be a multiple world champion without doing those things, but it is the mark of the man that he does it anyway, and worse still, he now sets the standard that all the newer drivers aim at. I have to wonder, if the championship had gone down to the wire this year, would Alonso have considered taking Kimi out if Kimi was trying to overtake him for the lead to take a 1pt lead and the WDC? I guess we'll never know, since Alonso is already champion and half the time they don't overtake on track anyway!
Mark Jones 30 September 2005 07:57:11 [ permanent link ]
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:03:38 +0100, Phil Newnham <pnewnham@yahoo.com> wrote:>Your Pal... Sal wrote:>>>If you're 1 point ahead of him, and if you will win if both of you fail>>>to finish, then yes. But this has been done to death - MS admitted on >>>television in an interview with Jeremy Clarkson for British TV that he >>>deliberately drove into Villeneuve in an attempt to remove him from the >>>racetrack. There is no doubt in my mind that he had no second thoughts >>>about driving into Hill's car either - as many have said, the example was >>>set by Senna, and if Senna can be allowed to get away with it...>>
I defer to you European blokes...>>
We don't get much coverage of the>> sport here un the land left handers.>>
But I'm glad you mentioned Senna>> for he had the same "passion" for>> winning.>
Senna's case was slightly different. Not that it excuses his actions, >but he was denied a championship by a certain Frenchman (not Prost, >although it was Prost that won) in an underhanded and unfair matter.
This makes no difference to Prost, the direct victim of Senna's move and the one most at risk of injury or worse. Senna had no justification at all, to drive into Prost. Prost didn't do anything wrong, hadn't made any mistakes, he'd just got a better start and was taking the normal line into turn one. Now while Schumacher is not excused at all from also driving into another car, his situation is slightly more muddled, as I maintain that Villeneuve essentially cut Schumacher off with his last gasp dive up the inside. Let me repeat, and be very clear, that this in no way excuses Schumacher's guilt in driving into another car.
I >think he thought that the rules had changed and he felt justified in >playing by the new rules. He wasn't stopped because they felt guilty >over the previous years result, IMO. But in not stopping him, a >dangerous precedent was set.
And how.
MS has made plenty of sloppy and stupid mistakes - for example, driving >>>clean off the road at Monaco in the wet whilst driving for Benetton. He >>>has usually had the fortune of doing it completely on his own, but more >>>recently he has taken others with him, for example Webber in Turkey, >>>Montoya in the Monaco tunnel.>>
These incidents are bound to happen>> it's just that his detractors always amp->> lify his rides for better or worse.>>
The fact renains he is lauded by every>> one who is anyone in the F-1community>
I will quite happily laud his ability to drive very very fast. I will >not ever respect him as a *racing* driver.
Presumably you also do not respect Senna as a racing driver. I however would not paint in such black and white shades.
Phil Newnham 30 September 2005 12:36:53 [ permanent link ]
Mark Jones wrote:> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:03:38 +0100, Phil Newnham <pnewnham@yahoo.com>> wrote:>
Senna's case was slightly different. Not that it excuses his actions, >>but he was denied a championship by a certain Frenchman (not Prost, >>although it was Prost that won) in an underhanded and unfair matter.>
This makes no difference to Prost, the direct victim of Senna's move> and the one most at risk of injury or worse. Senna had no> justification at all, to drive into Prost. Prost didn't do anything> wrong, hadn't made any mistakes, he'd just got a better start and was> taking the normal line into turn one. Now while Schumacher is not> excused at all from also driving into another car, his situation is> slightly more muddled, as I maintain that Villeneuve essentially cut> Schumacher off with his last gasp dive up the inside. Let me repeat,> and be very clear, that this in no way excuses Schumacher's guilt in> driving into another car.
"Not that it excuses his actions..." ;)
I will quite happily laud his ability to drive very very fast. I will >>not ever respect him as a *racing* driver.>
Presumably you also do not respect Senna as a racing driver. I> however would not paint in such black and white shades.
Senna only did it once, in clouded political circumstances when it must have seemed to him as though no one was on his side. Schumacher is a repeat offender, and handles driving at or into other cars as part of his winning philosophy. I have seen Senna give racing room to a driver who he intends to keep behind him. I have never seen Schumacher do that.
Ian Dalziel 30 September 2005 15:58:17 [ permanent link ]
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:36:53 +0100, Phil Newnham <pnewnham@yahoo.com> wrote:
Senna only did it once, in clouded political circumstances when it must >have seemed to him as though no one was on his side. Schumacher is a >repeat offender, and handles driving at or into other cars as part of >his winning philosophy. I have seen Senna give racing room to a driver >who he intends to keep behind him. I have never seen Schumacher do that.
Deliberately drive into another car to clinch the championship, I'll give you, once only.
Otherwise - Bollocks! Senna introduced the whole "let me through or we both crash" attitude. Senna was the only driver of his era who collided with every one of the other top drivers. --
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