Unintended Consequences

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Unintended Consequences
Ts 29 May 2005 19:49:07
	I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a race." After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot represents a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now have to allow a team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons? If so, how would the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious enough to warrant a precautionary change? Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted tire. This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to run race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It also ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially fatal consequences. No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of its ill-conceived rules tinkering. -ts
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John Briggs 29 May 2005 20:04:15 [ permanent link ]
	ts wrote:> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a> consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a> precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety> reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a> race." After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot> represents a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now> have to allow a team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons?> If so, how would the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious> enough to warrant a precautionary change?> Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the> suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design> the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted tire.> This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to run> race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It also> ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the> flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially> fatal consequences.> No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already> plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of> its ill-conceived rules tinkering. Don't be ridiculous - everyone could see that a tyre change was necessary on Kimi's car - even Kimi and the McLaren team. There would have been no penalty from the FIA for them changing it. -- John Briggs
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Lagano 29 May 2005 20:07:35 [ permanent link ]
	ts wrote:> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a> consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a> precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety> reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a race." > After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot represents> a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now have to allow a> team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons? If so, how would> the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious enough to warrant a> precautionary change? He he, this opens a new world of possibilities. You start the race, wear the hell out of front tyres and then to a massive lock up, drive a lap around and get another set of fronts. If FIA tries to punish you for that you say - are you trying to kill me here, look what happened to imi in Germany. This sucks, bring back slicks, tyre changes, keep refuelling, 1995 style qualifying ... Otherwise stewards will be carrying dead people around before much longer.
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Lagano 29 May 2005 20:10:05 [ permanent link ]
	John Briggs wrote:> ts wrote:> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a>>consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a>>precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety>>reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a>>race." After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot>>represents a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now>>have to allow a team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons?>>If so, how would the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious>>enough to warrant a precautionary change?>> Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the>>suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design>>the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted tire.>>This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to run>>race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It also>>ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the>>flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially>>fatal consequences.>> No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already>>plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of>>its ill-conceived rules tinkering.> Don't be ridiculous - everyone could see that a tyre change was necessary on > Kimi's car - even Kimi and the McLaren team. There would have been no > penalty from the FIA for them changing it. Not only that, but it's a little weird Kimi wasn't blackflagged, he could have easily killed himself or someone else on the track. FIA is in some seriously risky business here.
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John Briggs 29 May 2005 20:10:22 [ permanent link ]
	The Wizard wrote:> "ts" <ts_0053NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message> newsan.2005.05.29.15.49.06.424049@SPAMyahoo.com...>> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a>> consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a>> precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety>> reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a>> race." After today, I think there can be little doubt that a>> flatspot represents a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the>> FIA now have to allow a team to change a flatspotted tire for safety>> reasons? If so, how would the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot>> is serious enough to warrant a precautionary change?>> Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the>> suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design>> the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted>> tire. This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to>> run race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It>> also ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the>> flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially>> fatal consequences.> Strangely, ITV usually mention after another parade lap that they> knock a lap off the race length.> The Lap counter on screen did'nt change and the commentators certainly> did'nt mention it, So maybe I missed it... It did. It changed from 60 to 59. -- John Briggs
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John Briggs 29 May 2005 20:25:07 [ permanent link ]
	Lagano wrote:> John Briggs wrote:>> ts wrote:>> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as>>> a consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part,>>> "Unless a precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and>>> genuine safety reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be>>> changed during a race." After today, I think there can be little>>> doubt that a flatspot represents a "clear and genuine" safety>>> problem. Will the FIA now have to allow a team to change a>>> flatspotted tire for safety reasons? If so, how would the FIA judge>>> whether or not the flatspot is serious enough to warrant a>>> precautionary change? Of course, the FIA might counter that since the >>> failure was in the>>> suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design>>> the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted>>> tire. This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to>>> run race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It>>> also ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the>>> flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially>>> fatal consequences.>>> No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already>>> plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of>>> its ill-conceived rules tinkering.>> Don't be ridiculous - everyone could see that a tyre change was>> necessary on Kimi's car - even Kimi and the McLaren team. There>> would have been no penalty from the FIA for them changing it.> Not only that, but it's a little weird Kimi wasn't blackflagged, he> could have easily killed himself or someone else on the track. Now you're being ridiculous - who is going to black-flag a race leader when he isn't breaking the rules? -- John Briggs
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Martin Evans 29 May 2005 21:07:29 [ permanent link ]
	"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote: Now you're being ridiculous - who is going to black-flag a race leader when >he isn't breaking the rules? When the car behind is red? --
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Greg Watson 29 May 2005 21:25:26 [ permanent link ]
	"Martin Evans" <mcenews@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message news:dltj91dlto3ol9vlmfidiptp0inobfrlnt@4ax.com...> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:> Now you're being ridiculous - who is going to black-flag a race leader >>when>>he isn't breaking the rules?> When the car behind is red?> Newsflash: Ferrari aren't winning anymore so you can stop being a paranoid, bitter fuckwit.
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Ts 29 May 2005 22:01:20 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:04:15 +0000, John Briggs wrote: ts wrote:>> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a>> consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a>> precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety>> reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a>> race." After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot>> represents a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now>> have to allow a team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons?>> If so, how would the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious>> enough to warrant a precautionary change?>> Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the>> suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design>> the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted tire.>> This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to run>> race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It also>> ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the>> flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially>> fatal consequences.>> No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already>> plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of>> its ill-conceived rules tinkering.> Don't be ridiculous - everyone could see that a tyre change was necessary on > Kimi's car - even Kimi and the McLaren team. There would have been no > penalty from the FIA for them changing it. Focus on the forest and not the trees. Yes, in this particular case the tire was obviously coming apart in the final laps, but the damage was done much earlier, possibly on lap 30 (I'm just guessing - does anyone know exactly when he flatspotted the tire?). Suppose the tire had not started coming apart, but still exhibited the vibration? It's obvious that McLaren didn't know how much vibration the suspension could take before breaking. Could they have justified a tire change on Kimi's second pit stop, which occurred after his off on lap 30, but before the tire started showing obvious damage? -ts
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Ian Dalziel 29 May 2005 22:04:08 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:20 -0600, ts <ts_0053NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote: On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:04:15 +0000, John Briggs wrote:> ts wrote:>>> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a>>> consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a>>> precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety>>> reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a>>> race." After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot>>> represents a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now>>> have to allow a team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons?>>> If so, how would the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious>>> enough to warrant a precautionary change?>>> Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the>>> suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design>>> the suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted tire.>>> This brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to run>>> race-distance tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It also>>> ignores the fact that even if the suspension doesn't fail, the>>> flatspot itself can easily cause a tire failure, with potentially>>> fatal consequences.>>> No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already>>> plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of>>> its ill-conceived rules tinkering.>> Don't be ridiculous - everyone could see that a tyre change was necessary on >> Kimi's car - even Kimi and the McLaren team. There would have been no >> penalty from the FIA for them changing it.> Focus on the forest and not the trees. Yes, in this particular case the>tire was obviously coming apart in the final laps, but the damage was>done much earlier, possibly on lap 30 (I'm just guessing - does anyone>know exactly when he flatspotted the tire?). Suppose the tire had not>started coming apart, but still exhibited the vibration? It's obvious that>McLaren didn't know how much vibration the suspension could take before>breaking. Could they have justified a tire change on Kimi's second pit>stop, which occurred after his off on lap 30, but before the tire started>showing obvious damage? Nope. Can't change a tyre at a refuelling stop. -- Ian
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Martin Evans 29 May 2005 22:04:34 [ permanent link ]
	"Greg Watson" <unknown@unknown.com> wrote: "Martin Evans" <mcenews@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message >news:dltj91dlto3ol9vlmfidiptp0inobfrlnt@4ax.com...>> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:>> Now you're being ridiculous - who is going to black-flag a race leader >>>when>>>he isn't breaking the rules?>> When the car behind is red?>> Newsflash: Ferrari aren't winning anymore so you can stop being a paranoid, >bitter fuckwit. Irony is not something you use to remove creases from clothes..... --
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Ts 29 May 2005 22:18:25 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:04:08 +0100, Ian Dalziel wrote: On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:20 -0600, ts <ts_0053NO@SPAMyahoo.com>> wrote: Focus on the forest and not the trees. Yes, in this particular case the>>tire was obviously coming apart in the final laps, but the damage was>>done much earlier, possibly on lap 30 (I'm just guessing - does anyone>>know exactly when he flatspotted the tire?). Suppose the tire had not>>started coming apart, but still exhibited the vibration? It's obvious that>>McLaren didn't know how much vibration the suspension could take before>>breaking. Could they have justified a tire change on Kimi's second pit>>stop, which occurred after his off on lap 30, but before the tire started>>showing obvious damage?> Nope. Can't change a tyre at a refuelling stop. Good point, but the fundamental question still stands. Can a team justify a tire change at any time simply because it's flatspotted and vibrating? -ts
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John Briggs 29 May 2005 23:14:07 [ permanent link ]
	ts wrote:> On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:04:08 +0100, Ian Dalziel wrote:> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:20 -0600, ts <ts_0053NO@SPAMyahoo.com>>> wrote:> Focus on the forest and not the trees. Yes, in this particular>>> case the tire was obviously coming apart in the final laps, but the>>> damage was done much earlier, possibly on lap 30 (I'm just guessing>>> - does anyone know exactly when he flatspotted the tire?). Suppose>>> the tire had not started coming apart, but still exhibited the>>> vibration? It's obvious that McLaren didn't know how much vibration>>> the suspension could take before breaking. Could they have>>> justified a tire change on Kimi's second pit stop, which occurred>>> after his off on lap 30, but before the tire started showing>>> obvious damage?>> Nope. Can't change a tyre at a refuelling stop.> Good point, but the fundamental question still stands. Can a team> justify a tire change at any time simply because it's flatspotted and> vibrating? Yes. Next question? -- John Briggs
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Ts 29 May 2005 23:28:26 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:14:07 +0000, John Briggs wrote: ts wrote: Good point, but the fundamental question still stands. Can a team>> justify a tire change at any time simply because it's flatspotted and>> vibrating?> Yes. Next question? Thanks, Max! -ts
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John 30 May 2005 01:29:46 [ permanent link ]
	"Greg Watson" <unknown@unknown.com> wrote in message news:4299fb0a$1@news1.veridas.net...> "Martin Evans" <mcenews@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message> news:dltj91dlto3ol9vlmfidiptp0inobfrlnt@4ax.com...> > "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:> > Now you're being ridiculous - who is going to black-flag a race leader> >>when> >>he isn't breaking the rules?> > When the car behind is red?> > Newsflash: Ferrari aren't winning anymore so you can stop being a paranoid,> bitter fuckwit.> He's won nearly every fucking race for the last 5 years because he's had the biggest car advantage for the longest period in F1 history. Suddenly he doesn't win a race for 2 months and all his fans are throwing toys out. Such bad losers, grow up.
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Tussock 30 May 2005 08:10:39 [ permanent link ]
	Lagano wrote: <tires>> He he, this opens a new world of possibilities. You start the race, wear > the hell out of front tyres and then to a massive lock up, drive a lap > around and get another set of fronts. If FIA tries to punish you for > that you say - are you trying to kill me here, look what happened to imi > in Germany. You can only change one tire per pitstop, left and right tires must be the same composition, and left and right brakes must be the same strenth. There's no possible way to deliberately finangle a free tire change without stuffing your race. This sucks, bring back slicks, tyre changes, keep refuelling, 1995 style > qualifying ...> Otherwise stewards will be carrying dead people around before much longer. Yea, because they never crashed before this rule came in, and those old supersoft slicks never exploded under braking. Idiot. -- tussock Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
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Lagano 30 May 2005 10:29:18 [ permanent link ]
	tussock wrote:> Lagano wrote:> <tires>> He he, this opens a new world of possibilities. You start the race, >> wear the hell out of front tyres and then to a massive lock up, drive >> a lap around and get another set of fronts. If FIA tries to punish you >> for that you say - are you trying to kill me here, look what happened >> to imi in Germany.> You can only change one tire per pitstop, left and right tires must > be the same composition, and left and right brakes must be the same > strenth. There's no possible way to deliberately finangle a free tire > change without stuffing your race.> This sucks, bring back slicks, tyre changes, keep refuelling, 1995 >> style qualifying ...>> Otherwise stewards will be carrying dead people around before much >> longer.> Yea, because they never crashed before this rule came in, and those > old supersoft slicks never exploded under braking. Surely less than if you have to wear one set of tyres for entire race. Idiot. Idiot is your daddy who didn't teach you that different people might have different views on same thing. Apart from not having respect for others you don't seem to have respect for him, let alone for yourself. Lagano
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Paul-B 30 May 2005 12:27:38 [ permanent link ]
	Greg Watson wrote: "Martin Evans" <mcenews@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message > news:dltj91dlto3ol9vlmfidiptp0inobfrlnt@4ax.com...> > "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:> > Now you're being ridiculous - who is going to black-flag a race> > > leader when> > > he isn't breaking the rules?> > When the car behind is red?> > Newsflash: Ferrari aren't winning anymore so you can stop being a> paranoid, bitter fuckwit. Who mentioned Ferrari? What colour is Toyota?
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F2005 . . . 30 May 2005 18:30:54 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 29 May 2005 09:49:07 -0600, ts <ts_0053NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:>I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a>consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a>precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety>reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a race." >After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot represents>a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now have to allow a>team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons? If so, how would>the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious enough to warrant a>precautionary change?> Of course, the FIA might counter that since the failure was in the>suspension rather than the tire, that the constructors should design the>suspension to withstand the stresses of a badly flatspotted tire. This>brings up the ridiculous possibility of teams having to run race-distance>tests with intentionally flatspotted tires. It also ignores the fact that>even if the suspension doesn't fail, the flatspot itself can easily cause>a tire failure, with potentially fatal consequences.> No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already>plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of its>ill-conceived rules tinkering. "Thank the goddamned British, kids..." The events of the Euro GP illustrate nothing more significant than the lack of genuine driving talent of "Kimi", the slushman, and the homicidal single mindedness of some British team principles.
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Tussock 30 May 2005 19:30:01 [ permanent link ]
	Lagano wrote:> tussock wrote: <snip>>>> This sucks, bring back slicks, tyre changes, keep refuelling, 1995 >>> style qualifying ...>>> Otherwise stewards will be carrying dead people around before much >>> longer.>> Yea, because they never crashed before this rule came in, and >> those old supersoft slicks never exploded under braking.> Surely less than if you have to wear one set of tyres for entire race. Not AFAICT, knee-jerk reactions aside. Tyres are designed to last the required number of laps +1. /Any/ tire might have an inbuilt error, wearing 12 or even 16 each during a race makes the odd bad ones more likely to show up, just as they did in the past. Teams can change a damaged tire now, just as easily as before, and just like then, sometimes they'll take a chance with a slow deflation or bad flat-spot for a few laps at the end of a race. Idiot.> Idiot is your daddy who didn't teach you that different people might > have different views on same thing. Not all views are created equal; see racism, war for peace, flat earth society, and so on. Apart from not having respect for others you don't seem to have respect > for him, let alone for yourself. Dad can spot idiots too. He doesn't much respect their veiws, that's kinda the point. -- tussock Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
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Tussock 30 May 2005 19:34:03 [ permanent link ]
	Bob Dubery wrote:> ts wrote: <snip>>>No matter how it turns out, I think this incident highlights already>>plainly evident inability of the FIA to foresee the consequences of its>>ill-conceived rules tinkering.> It's long been accepted that flat-spotted tyres are evidence of not> particularly clever driving. Raikkonen and Montoya were both seen> locking their right-front wheel in spectacular style. I was waiting for> the after-race comments from the teams to see if McLaren were going to> refer to a set-up or design problem that had caused both McLaren's to> lock their wheels, but nothing. They had a new aero mod there, according to the formula1.com site, that was asymmetric, designed to help pull them into the right handers I presume. I dare say they were not well enough tested on the heavily banked 1st and 2nd gear turns, what with those being rather hard to find elsewhere. Don't lock your wheels up in the first place would not be an> unreasonable retort from officialdom. That, or "next time, change the fucking tire". -- tussock Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
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Ts 30 May 2005 20:05:46 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 29 May 2005 22:57:07 -0700, Bob Dubery wrote: It's long been accepted that flat-spotted tyres are evidence of not> particularly clever driving. Raikkonen and Montoya were both seen> locking their right-front wheel in spectacular style. I was waiting for> the after-race comments from the teams to see if McLaren were going to> refer to a set-up or design problem that had caused both McLaren's to> lock their wheels, but nothing. I think that's an overstatement. Flatspots happen all the time and to drivers at all skill levels. All it takes is getting one out of the hundreds of corners in a race just a little wrong. In the past, the penalty for a flatspot wasn't too bad - the driver just had to put up with it until the next scheduled pit stop. With the one tire rule, the penalty for flatspotting is blown all out of proportion. Perhaps I'm a throwback, but I still like to see the best car/driver package win, regardless of the color of the livery. The one tire rule, like some others in the recent past, seem created to lessen the probability of that happening. -ts
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Ts 31 May 2005 07:04:08 [ permanent link ]
	On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:03:53 -0700, Bob Dubery wrote: ts wrote:>> I believe an interesting dilemma may have presented itself today as a>> consequence of Kimi's accident. Rule 74(a) reads, in part, "Unless a>> precautionary tyre change is necessary for clear and genuine safety>> reasons, only a punctured or damaged tyre may be changed during a race.">> After today, I think there can be little doubt that a flatspot represents>> a "clear and genuine" safety problem. Will the FIA now have to allow a>> team to change a flatspotted tire for safety reasons? If so, how would>> the FIA judge whether or not the flatspot is serious enough to warrant a>> precautionary change?> McLaren actually considered changing Kimi's RF tyre. They didn't> because they knew it would cost them a win. Staying out on that> flat-spotted tyre was the high risk, high reward option. Pitting would> have guaranteed them points - but less points.> And there's the rub. Assuming a team DOES want to play that game then> they'd have to make another pitstop and lose a good deal of time in> doing so. A valid point, and one which illustrates just how ill-conceived this one tire rule really is. It increases the chances that a tire will be unsafe towards the end of the race, yet severely penalizes a team if they wish to mitigate the danger by replacing it. -ts
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Unintended Consequences

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