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Fatback's reaction to the Vegas penalties
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GYXU > F1, Indy, Nascar, Rally > Fatback's reaction to the Vegas penalties 23 March 2005 06:56:25

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Fatback's reaction to the Vegas penalties

Wheeler 21 March 2005 07:18:16
 
Fatback's stance on the penalties: The crimes committed in Sin City [Las
Vegas] drew stiff punishments and suspensions for [crew chiefs] #48-Chad
Knaus, #5-Alan Gustafson and #29-Todd Berrier but not much sympathy from
many competitors. The trio is challenging the penalties as excessive, but
[#21 Crew Chief] Michael "Fatback" McSwain wasn't interested in hearing
explanations or claims of injustice. "Tough [expletive]," said McSwain,
crew chief for Ricky Rudd. "That's [baloney], man. That's what's wrong with
America now. Every time somebody screws up, we tell them it's all right.
You don't pay your bills, you can file bankruptcy. You kill somebody, spend
10 years in jail, and we'll let you out. That's what's wrong with society
now, man. If you do the crime do the time. If you had the guts to do it,
have the guts to take your punishment."


Couldn't have said it better myself.


--
Wheeler

Add comment
Crusader 21 March 2005 20:37:48 permanent link ]
 "Wheeler" <jsebright@gmail.co­m> wrote in message
news:Xns961FE2E1327­F5jw2468@69.28.186.1­21...> >From Jayski.com:>
Fatback's stance on the penalties: The crimes committed in Sin City [Las> Vegas] drew stiff punishments and suspensions for [crew chiefs] #48-Chad> Knaus, #5-Alan Gustafson and #29-Todd Berrier but not much sympathy from> many competitors. The trio is challenging the penalties as excessive, but> [#21 Crew Chief] Michael "Fatback" McSwain wasn't interested in hearing> explanations or claims of injustice. "Tough [expletive]," said McSwain,> crew chief for Ricky Rudd. "That's [baloney], man. That's what's wrong with> America now. Every time somebody screws up, we tell them it's all right.> You don't pay your bills, you can file bankruptcy. You kill somebody, spend> 10 years in jail, and we'll let you out. That's what's wrong with society> now, man. If you do the crime do the time. If you had the guts to do it,> have the guts to take your punishment.">
Couldn't have said it better myself.> --> Wheeler>
Gotta say, Fatback took this like a man:

Four penalties were issued to Wood Brothers Racing
because of an unapproved spoiler adjustment on the No.
21 Ford that took place after pre-race inspection for
the Gatorade Duel at Daytona (Daytona 500 qualifying
races) on Feb. 17.
Ricky Rudd was penalized 25 driver points; Glen Wood was
penalized 25 owner points; and crew chief Michael
McSwain was fined $25,000.
Also, crew member Marc Smith was suspended from NASCAR
competition until March 31. The No. 21 also was in
violation of Sections 12-4-A and 12-4-Q.

CRU


Add comment
R E D N A L O 22 March 2005 05:21:20 permanent link ]
 On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:18:16 CST, Wheeler <jsebright@gmail.co­m> wrote:
From Jayski.com:>
Fatback's stance on the penalties: The crimes committed in Sin City [Las >Vegas] drew stiff punishments and suspensions for [crew chiefs] #48-Chad >Knaus, #5-Alan Gustafson and #29-Todd Berrier but not much sympathy from >many competitors. The trio is challenging the penalties as excessive, but >[#21 Crew Chief] Michael "Fatback" McSwain wasn't interested in hearing >explanations or claims of injustice. "Tough [expletive]," said McSwain, >crew chief for Ricky Rudd. "That's [baloney], man. That's what's wrong with >America now. Every time somebody screws up, we tell them it's all right. >You don't pay your bills, you can file bankruptcy. You kill somebody, spend >10 years in jail, and we'll let you out. That's what's wrong with society >now, man. If you do the crime do the time. If you had the guts to do it, >have the guts to take your punishment.">
Couldn't have said it better myself.

The problem I have with this and other comments like it is that sounds like
if you get caught in a situation, like Jimmy Johnson did at Las Vegas, and
penalized by NASCAR, you must be guilty of cheating because that is what
NASCAR said. Is it possible that they were NOTcheating and that the bolt
that caused this whole fiasco actually backed out on it's own? What if the
48 team didn't do the crime? Should they automatically be considered
guilty and have to do the time? This situation is nothing like what the 29
team did, which was obvious blatant cheating. I think NASCAR is wrong
in the way they mete out their "justice..."

DR

Add comment
Somebody 22 March 2005 16:54:32 permanent link ]
 
<r_e_d_n_a_l_o@mchs­i.com> wrote in message
news:h5ru3114437vro­ide8ipvff8ubdtbrs1hp­@4ax.com...> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:18:16 CST, Wheeler <jsebright@gmail.co­m> wrote:>
From Jayski.com:> >
Fatback's stance on the penalties: The crimes committed in Sin City [Las> >Vegas] drew stiff punishments and suspensions for [crew chiefs] #48-Chad> >Knaus, #5-Alan Gustafson and #29-Todd Berrier but not much sympathy from> >many competitors. The trio is challenging the penalties as excessive, but> >[#21 Crew Chief] Michael "Fatback" McSwain wasn't interested in hearing> >explanations or claims of injustice. "Tough [expletive]," said McSwain,> >crew chief for Ricky Rudd. "That's [baloney], man. That's what's wrong
with> >America now. Every time somebody screws up, we tell them it's all right.> >You don't pay your bills, you can file bankruptcy. You kill somebody,
spend> >10 years in jail, and we'll let you out. That's what's wrong with society> >now, man. If you do the crime do the time. If you had the guts to do it,> >have the guts to take your punishment."> >
Couldn't have said it better myself.>
The problem I have with this and other comments like it is that sounds
like> if you get caught in a situation, like Jimmy Johnson did at Las Vegas, and> penalized by NASCAR, you must be guilty of cheating because that is what> NASCAR said. Is it possible that they were NOTcheating and that the bolt> that caused this whole fiasco actually backed out on it's own? What if the> 48 team didn't do the crime? Should they automatically be considered> guilty and have to do the time? This situation is nothing like what the 29> team did, which was obvious blatant cheating. I think NASCAR is wrong> in the way they mete out their "justice..."


In this instance, I agree with your statements. What should grow out of it
however, is that the teams will have to spend engineering dollars making
sure falures of that type cannot occur, whereas it is possible in the past
they have actually spent effort to make sure they *could* occur, thus giving
plausible deniability.

NASCAR's new hard line will make them change their approach -- maybe they do
need to stop going so close to the edge on these setup calls. As KS said on
'the show', NASCAR does build in some wiggle room, but at some point they
have to draw a line, and it's the CC's job to avoid that line.

What I *don't* like is the spectre of racing incidents... contact, etc....
making legal cars illegal, then penalizing for it. The flip side is
intentional minor contact to allow one to skirt a particular rule in some
way. It's a hard one to make policy on and to police, it requires cool
heads and common sense, both of which tend to be in short supply both after
a race and when making the rules these days.

-Russ.

Add comment
Steve Scott 22 March 2005 21:22:36 permanent link ]
 I think DW and JH put it well during the pre-race. "Don't call me a
cheater. Saw we had an infraction." Rough quote.

Maybe the 48 team tried something and got caught, maybe not. In any
case the car was out of spec coming off the track. On that basis
penalties should be assessed. IMO, the teams should know up front
exactly what the penalties will be. Make 'em sit out if you're going
to but let them know exactly what the penalties will be.

What Helton's doing sort of reminds me of when our kids were small.
Too often you see parents threaten to punish their children when they
do something wrong. You've seen it. "If you do this, you're going to
sit in the corner." Then the kid does it and the parent ignores it.
Finally, the kids do it enough. The parents get angry, ends up
spanking the kid and the kid is confused because you always ignored it
before.

We told our kids up front, if you do this, I'm going to spank you.
And then when they did it we fulfilled our promise to them. The kids
were never confused and they always knew where they stood.

Now NASCAR said we're going to find the daylights out of you for
infractions. And they did till they got fed up so they started fining
and taking away points. And they did that till they got fed up and
started fining, taking away points and suspending crew chiefs. But
the increased penalties always come without prior warning so it takes
everyone by surprise.

It really doesn't seem so hard. All Helton has to say is, "Here's the
car specs. Your car MUST meet them in post-race inspection or you
forfeit the win and get last place points. We're telling you today.
This starts next week. End of story."

Instead, now there's apparently a veiled threat to sit drivers out.
Which is fine too. Just be exact about what you're going to do and
when you're going to increase the penalties. NASCAR is acting like
the parent allowing their child to get away with bad behavior and then
acts surprised and over reacts when the behavior continues.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:21:20 CST, r_e_d_n_a_l_o@mchsi­.com wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:18:16 CST, Wheeler <jsebright@gmail.co­m> wrote:>
From Jayski.com:>>
Fatback's stance on the penalties: The crimes committed in Sin City [Las >>Vegas] drew stiff punishments and suspensions for [crew chiefs] #48-Chad >>Knaus, #5-Alan Gustafson and #29-Todd Berrier but not much sympathy from >>many competitors. The trio is challenging the penalties as excessive, but >>[#21 Crew Chief] Michael "Fatback" McSwain wasn't interested in hearing >>explanations or claims of injustice. "Tough [expletive]," said McSwain, >>crew chief for Ricky Rudd. "That's [baloney], man. That's what's wrong with >>America now. Every time somebody screws up, we tell them it's all right. >>You don't pay your bills, you can file bankruptcy. You kill somebody, spend >>10 years in jail, and we'll let you out. That's what's wrong with society >>now, man. If you do the crime do the time. If you had the guts to do it, >>have the guts to take your punishment.">>
Couldn't have said it better myself.>
The problem I have with this and other comments like it is that sounds like>if you get caught in a situation, like Jimmy Johnson did at Las Vegas, and>penalized by NASCAR, you must be guilty of cheating because that is what>NASCAR said. Is it possible that they were NOTcheating and that the bolt>that caused this whole fiasco actually backed out on it's own? What if the>48 team didn't do the crime? Should they automatically be considered>guilty and have to do the time? This situation is nothing like what the 29>team did, which was obvious blatant cheating. I think NASCAR is wrong>in the way they mete out their "justice...">
DR


--
"I'm trying to make insects fly", said
Tom flippantly.



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WildWeasel 23 March 2005 06:32:32 permanent link ]
 
"Steve Scott" wrote ...> snip good stuff>
It really doesn't seem so hard. All Helton has to say is, "Here's the> car specs. Your car MUST meet them in post-race inspection or you> forfeit the win and get last place points. We're telling you today.> This starts next week. End of story.">
Instead, now there's apparently a veiled threat to sit drivers out.> Which is fine too.

Right here is where you lose me, because in the veiled threat he DIDN'T say what
exactly was gonna make him do it (you know the rules, (the "not in the best
interest" one?)) or what he's going to do, exactly or otherwise (don't make me
do it? What's "IT"? Sit 'em? Take away wins? Drop finishing x number of
positions?) THAT'S the problem. He has NOT done, that we know of, exactly what
you correctly prescribed.

Veiled (and empty and vague) threats are exactly what bad parents do, like you
say.
Just be exact about what you're going to do and> when you're going to increase the penalties. NASCAR is acting like> the parent allowing their child to get away with bad behavior and then> acts surprised and over reacts when the behavior continues.>


Add comment
Steve Scott 23 March 2005 06:56:25 permanent link ]
 In re-reading this that sentence "Which is fine too." is confusing. I
meant if NASCAR wants to make drivers sit out a race if their car
isn't legal at the end of the race, that's fine too. Just as long as
everyone knows about it ahead of time.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:32:32 CST, "WildWeasel" <wweasel_24@HooYah.­com>
wrote:
"Steve Scott" wrote ...>> snip good stuff>>
It really doesn't seem so hard. All Helton has to say is, "Here's the>> car specs. Your car MUST meet them in post-race inspection or you>> forfeit the win and get last place points. We're telling you today.>> This starts next week. End of story.">>
Instead, now there's apparently a veiled threat to sit drivers out.>> Which is fine too.>
Right here is where you lose me, because in the veiled threat he DIDN'T say what >exactly was gonna make him do it (you know the rules, (the "not in the best >interest" one?)) or what he's going to do, exactly or otherwise (don't make me >do it? What's "IT"? Sit 'em? Take away wins? Drop finishing x number of >positions?) THAT'S the problem. He has NOT done, that we know of, exactly what >you correctly prescribed.>
Veiled (and empty and vague) threats are exactly what bad parents do, like you >say.>
Just be exact about what you're going to do and>> when you're going to increase the penalties. NASCAR is acting like>> the parent allowing their child to get away with bad behavior and then>> acts surprised and over reacts when the behavior continues.>>

Add comment
Crusader 24 March 2005 01:23:16 permanent link ]
 WW, those are THE Questions.
In other places, i ask more.
--
Crusader

"WildWeasel" <wweasel_24@HooYah.­com> wrote in message
news:MbKdnb4mb-soSd­3fUSdV9g@ptd.net...>­
"Steve Scott" wrote ...> > snip good stuff> >
It really doesn't seem so hard. All Helton has to say is, "Here's the> > car specs. Your car MUST meet them in post-race inspection or you> > forfeit the win and get last place points. We're telling you today.> > This starts next week. End of story."> >
Instead, now there's apparently a veiled threat to sit drivers out.> > Which is fine too.>
Right here is where you lose me, because in the veiled threat he DIDN'T say what> exactly was gonna make him do it (you know the rules, (the "not in the best> interest" one?)) or what he's going to do, exactly or otherwise (don't make me> do it? What's "IT"? Sit 'em? Take away wins? Drop finishing x number of> positions?) THAT'S the problem. He has NOT done, that we know of, exactly what> you correctly prescribed.>
Veiled (and empty and vague) threats are exactly what bad parents do, like you> say.>
Just be exact about what you're going to do and> > when you're going to increase the penalties. NASCAR is acting like> > the parent allowing their child to get away with bad behavior and then> > acts surprised and over reacts when the behavior continues.> >


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GYXU > F1, Indy, Nascar, Rally > Fatback's reaction to the Vegas penalties 23 March 2005 06:56:25

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