"Bob Dubery" <megapode@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ec7c482b-87f4-4415-83f1-73c99cde0430@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 6, 6:30 am, "verb" <n...@lid.com> wrote:
90 - the butchering of the mulsanne straight
That straight was built a long time ago, when speeds were not as
high.
A very long time ago. It is the N138 When the cicuit was first conceived it was all public roads and les Hunaudieres started closer to the town centre some 2-3km further north of Tertre Rouge.
Was it the CLK-GTR incident that prompted the placement of the chicanes?.
That straight was built a long time ago, when speeds were not as
high.
A very long time ago. It is the N138 When the cicuit was first
conceived it was all public roads and les Hunaudieres started closer to the
town centre some 2-3km further north of Tertre Rouge.
Was it the CLK-GTR incident that prompted the placement of the chicanes?.
I don't remember the dates, but if those are related it means only that the accident was the pretext for the rule (the problem was with the cars, not the straight). That was mostly the FIA trying to force the ACO out of business (they didn't expect that the ACO would find the money to build the chicanes).
That straight was built a long time ago, when speeds were not as
high.
A very long time ago. It is the N138 When the cicuit was first
conceived it was all public roads and les Hunaudieres started closer to the
town centre some 2-3km further north of Tertre Rouge.
Was it the CLK-GTR incident that prompted the placement of the chicanes?.
It doesn't happen frequently, but if they can get aero that wrong, they shouldn't be out there. Same for Redman's Lola 332 at the 1977 Can Am at Le Circuit Mt. Tremblant, and Dalmas' Porsche (1998) and Auberlen's BMW (2000) Petit Le Mans/ALMS at Road Atlanta. Why blame the track for risky aero "tuning"?
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro 6 December 2007 15:58:05 [ permanent link ]
verb <notv@lid.com> wrote:
i guess it was a slow decay that continues to this day.
'milestones'
70's - influence of the safety do gooder zealots
So, you like to see racing drivers die ? One of those "zealots" was Jackie Stewart who was risking his life in (by modern standards) unsafe cars and unsafe tracks.
It might be argued that sometimes safety measures went too far, but that is a 90's problem (some of the reactions to Senna's death), not 70's.
80's - appearance of unnecessary technology - computers
Luddite. Ok, computers have made some things very difficult to enforce (banning traction control, f.ex.) but to not use computers would be such a step backward...
and carbonfibre
Again, do you want to see racing drivers die ?
90's - Lotus forced out of F1 (highly symbolic)
Forced out ? They were in decline for years until they could not continue. (no sucess => no sponsors => no money => no sucess)
i guess it was a slow decay that continues to this day.
'milestones'
70's - influence of the safety do gooder zealots
Your point is that racing is only fun if the spectators are splashed with blood on every lap? Say, why not just give RIFLES to the spectators, and let them SHOOT at the cars as they go by? You'd love that, right?
80's - appearance of unnecessary technology - computers and carbonfibre
Darned right! Newfangled internal combustion engines are for SISSIES! Let's go back to one horse per chariot! The OLD technology is best!
- outsourcing GPs to third world countries
Your point is that only white Christians should enjoy motor sports?
any more to add?
I think your tinfoil helmet has slipped--and you probably ought to start taking the medicine the doctors give you.
_______________________________________________ Ken Kuzenski AC4RD atsign mindspring dotsign com _______________________________________________ All disclaimers apply, see? www.duke.edu/~kuzen001
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:30:17 +1100, "verb" <notv@lid.com> wrote:
i guess it was a slow decay that continues to this day.
'milestones'
70's - influence of the safety do gooder zealots
75 - F1's last race at the nurburgring
80's - appearance of unnecessary technology - computers and carbonfibre
- mickey mouse tracks
90 - the butchering of the mulsanne straight
90's - Lotus forced out of F1 (highly symbolic)
00's - more and more mickey mouse tracks
- outsourcing GPs to third world countries
- robotic drivers
-more and more poisonous $$$
any more to add?
Refueling, which led to scheduled pit stops, tire changes, and the increased involvement of team members other than tha driver in race strategy and tactics.
That straight was built a long time ago, when speeds were not as
high.
A very long time ago. It is the N138 When the cicuit was first
conceived it was all public roads and les Hunaudieres started closer to
the
town centre some 2-3km further north of Tertre Rouge.
Was it the CLK-GTR incident that prompted the placement of the
chicanes?.
It doesn't happen frequently, but if they can get aero that wrong, they
shouldn't be out there. Same for Redman's Lola 332 at the 1977 Can Am
at Le Circuit Mt. Tremblant, and Dalmas' Porsche (1998) and Auberlen's
BMW (2000) Petit Le Mans/ALMS at Road Atlanta. Why blame the track for
risky aero "tuning"?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Outright speed was not the problem. Cars were hitting 200mph on the
Mulsanne 45 years ago. I think the Mulsanne "problem" in the modern
age has been that 200 was attainable within a few hundred yards ---
followed by boredom, noise, and engine wear, while modern aero
downforce and drag effectively kept later generations of cars to maybe
220. Not interesting. Anyone read Duncan Hamilton's accounts of 180
at night with headlights gone, and the two side-by-side D-types
"splitting" to pass a Panhard in mid-straight?
No problem with the Mulsanne except for Bernie wanting the TV rights. The old straigh actually allowed the drivers to relax for a little while. The post-chicane track is much harder on the drivers, and on the machinery, with two heavy decelerations, and subsequent acceleration up through the gears again, added per lap. Doc Mk I
That straight was built a long time ago, when speeds were not as
high.
A very long time ago. It is the N138 When the cicuit was first
conceived it was all public roads and les Hunaudieres started closer to
the
town centre some 2-3km further north of Tertre Rouge.
Was it the CLK-GTR incident that prompted the placement of the chicanes?.
On that subject, I find it crazy that it happened *twice* and M-B still
said
"oh well, it'll be alright on the day..."
Unbelievable arrogance. The cars most certainly looked a real handful in practice, and the *two* back-flips in practice should have been adequate warning. Mercedes-Benz were extremely lucky to get away with that one....except, of course, that a few years later we learned from Bernd Schneider that those cars were *not* Mercedes-Benz....they were AMGs! Doc Mk I
i guess it was a slow decay that continues to this day.
'milestones'
70's - influence of the safety do gooder zealots
75 - F1's last race at the nurburgring
80's - appearance of unnecessary technology - computers and carbonfibre
- mickey mouse tracks
90 - the butchering of the mulsanne straight
90's - Lotus forced out of F1 (highly symbolic)
00's - more and more mickey mouse tracks
- outsourcing GPs to third world countries
- robotic drivers
-more and more poisonous $$$
any more to add?
-gentleman drivers replaced by unsportsmanlike
narcissists (eg schumacher)
-moronic clueless fans
jeez... mostly negative hateful replies.
i expected at least a few true motorsport fans here...
i guess all of you fans of modern F1 are morons
who are easily taken in by the hype and marketing
that is modern F1.
Enjoy your F1 'circus', lol.
If you've been around F1 and racing long, generally, and around this NG, you'll find that while there is wide disagreement on some of the particulars and the pros and cons, there is a decided, if unfortunate, preference for "the F1 that was" over "the F1 that is, and will be".
"verb" <notv@lid.com> wrote in news:47577ada$0$13959$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
i guess it was a slow decay that continues to this day.
'milestones'
70's - influence of the safety do gooder zealots
Riight. Enough people have said how wrong this point is, so I have nothing to add.
75 - F1's last race at the nurburgring
Which Stewart called the green hell for a reason - Check it out, you can get the old Nordschleife for *many* racing games. Try doing a lap in under 7 minutes. You will see what they meant. And *that's* with a completely smooth surface, something the Nordschleife has probably *never* been.
80's - appearance of unnecessary technology - computers and
carbonfibre
If by that you mean traction control, ABS and semi-automatic transmissions, I agree. But if you refer to what an ECU normally does, then it's nonsence. NASA made a decision when they formed: Their Astronauts would be pilots, not passengers. Something the FIA didn't do. If the driver doesn't control the car, the driver doesn't matter. Sure he steers, hits the brakes and accelerator, but plenty of drivers don't even do *that* properly.
- mickey mouse tracks
Agreed. The graft F1 is getting from the tracks for the ability to run their races on those tracks has led to these tracks not being able to maintain themselves and keep their size.
90 - the butchering of the mulsanne straight
250 Mph is *not* safe in virtually any vehicle unless it's *completely* flat and the wheels hardly turn at all. Human reflexes are only so good - reacting in under 1/10 sec. is almost impossible due to the speed of our neurons.
00's - more and more mickey mouse tracks
Mentioned above
- outsourcing GPs to third world countries
Due to the FIA wanting more money for no good reason. The track *owns* the track, and should get money for running a race, not the other way arround.
- robotic drivers
Due to the things I mentioned above.
-more and more poisonous $$$
It's called inflation and the price of making a faster car full stop.
any more to add?
A bit more thought could have gone into these points, but at least it's something contributing to the group.
Pete Fenelon 7 December 2007 10:10:33 [ permanent link ]
verb <notv@lid.com> wrote:
75 - F1's last race at the nurburgring
If the last GP at the Nurburgring was '75 Niki Lauda would only be ugly, not scarred... ;(
90's - Lotus forced out of F1 (highly symbolic)
Arguably Lotus should've been 'forced' out of F1 earlier, given Chapman's attitude to finance. Difficult to be an F1 technical genius if you're sewing mailbags and twoed-up with some beast in Wormwood Scrubs.
00's - more and more mickey mouse tracks
- outsourcing GPs to third world countries
Agreed.
any more to add?
Tilke. Tilke. Fucking Tilke.
pete -- pete@fenelon.com "irk the purists - if you've never then you ought."
Pete Fenelon 7 December 2007 10:14:45 [ permanent link ]
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro <rps@koala.mat.uc.pt> wrote:
Luddite. Ok, computers have made some things very difficult to enforce
(banning traction control, f.ex.) but to not use computers would be
such a step backward...
I want nothing more electrically sophisticated than a spark plug on F1 cars. I worked in embedded software for automotive for a decade. If I want to watch what software engineers are capable of I can look at what was checked into the version-control system. If I want to watch racing I'll watch racing.
pete -- pete@fenelon.com "irk the purists - if you've never then you ought."
Pete Fenelon 7 December 2007 10:16:20 [ permanent link ]
pltrgyst <pltrgyst@spamlessxhost.org> wrote:
any more to add?
Refueling, which led to scheduled pit stops, tire changes, and the increased
involvement of team members other than tha driver in race strategy and tactics.
Yes.... banned on safety grounds, reintroduced to 'improve the show' and now its removal can't be considered because it's 'safer' than not refuelling.
Perish the thought that refelling can't be replaced because without it there'd be fuckall to show on races from Tilkedromes with one FIA-sanctioned passing place. (Makes it sound like a goat-track in Wales doesn't it?)
pete -- pete@fenelon.com "irk the purists - if you've never then you ought."
In article <jd8n25-2bj.ln1@fenelon.com>, pete@stratos.fenelon.com says...
Halmyre <nospam@this.address> wrote:
On that subject, I find it crazy that it happened *twice* and M-B still said
"oh well, it'll be alright on the day..."
German engineering culture for you. "The simulations say it's safe,
Herr Dr Professor Ing. XYZ says it's safe, so it's safe. Why are you
looking out of the window at that flying car?"
pete
Reminds me of a Frank Gardnerism, when he was told by the Porsche engineers that "zer compooter" predicted a certain speed at the Nurburgring; Frank pointed out that "zer compooter" wasn't strapped into the driver's seat up in the Eifel mountains, where you tende to get the odd corner...
i guess it was a slow decay that continues to this day.
'milestones'
70's - influence of the safety do gooder zealots
Like JYS? Do you really think F1 was much more worthwhile when we hade two
or three drivers killed every year?
Nobody likes to see drivers killed, it's up to the drivers if they want to participate. A driver complaining about safety is a bit like a soldier complaing that the battleground is too dangerous. it's absurd.
i agree that a reasonable level of safety is required, but it has gone way too far.
75 - F1's last race at the nurburgring
Odd....I am pretty sure I saw them race there in 1976.
Niki Lauda, in particular.
80's - appearance of unnecessary technology - computers and carbonfibre
Yes, sheet aluminium chassis that allowed drivers to be crushed or sliced
in accidents in definitely neccessary.
it depends on the design, not the material.
- mickey mouse tracks
90 - the butchering of the mulsanne straight
And when did F1 cars race down the Mulsanne?
Look at the thread title. Anyway, it was those unmentionable tools who run F1 that were responsible for ruining sportscar racing and Lemans.
90's - Lotus forced out of F1 (highly symbolic)
Forced? They went belly-up from lack of results.
00's - more and more mickey mouse tracks
- outsourcing GPs to third world countries
Oh yes, motor racing should remain a white man's sport?
(Rest of rubbish snipped.)
lol - well, white men (and Japanese) seem to be it's only fans.
250 Mph is *not* safe in virtually any vehicle unless it's
*completely* flat and the wheels hardly turn at all. Human reflexes
are only so good - reacting in under 1/10 sec. is almost impossible
due to the speed of our neurons.
i agree - the proper regulations should be able to keep them at max
220.
And then you have the problem (visual, but still looks bad) of nobody being passed on a straight as if they're just keeping up to the guy in front without *trying* to pass. No, the idea of slowing down cars maximum speed in a race is just the wrong thing to do. The idea of slowing down a course is ok on the surface, but the way it's been done is too simplistic - put in a chicane where a speedy part is. I think it was Hungary this year, where at one point *everyone* was dropping three or four gears *just* before the new one. Sounded *great* - even Hobbs was impressed, but it's just the wrong way. A Bit more thought into redesigning the track would go a long way. For example, nobody goes airborne any more, I think it would equalize the problems with everyone having low ride hight and ridiculous aerodynamics very nicely. And the cars that *don't* go airborne would be going slower at that point and could be caught up - although passing that way *probably* wouldn't be a good idea <g>.
You may have noticed I trimed your reply taking out anything you didn't respond to. It makes reading a reply less tiresome. It's also considered good netiquette.
"pltrgyst" <pltrgyst@spamlessxhost.org> skrev i melding news:litml3tvbg6lu8kda7t3hfvi3k5h5q3jm1@4ax.com...
On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:02:31 +0100, "Doc Knutsen" <doc@cheekracingDOTcom>
wrote:
....Jim Clark suffered a rear wheel puncture through no
fault of the driver's, and was powerless to prevent the Lotus from leaving
the track. And the track at that point was lined with stout trees.
Well, if you consider two to six inches diameter to be "stout"...
Granted, it's a relative term, but they weren't very large trees. But
large
enough for the job, unfortunately.
Six inches diameter trees were strong enough to tear up a Lotus 48 aluminium monocoque, and break the neck of its occupant. They had no place lining the outside of a corner on a motor racing circuit. But "stout"...maybe not, proper stout is dark, frothy and comes in pint-sized glasses :o) Doc Mk I
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro 10 December 2007 16:04:46 [ permanent link ]
verb <notv@lid.com> wrote:
"Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" <rps@koala.mat.uc.pt> wrote in message
news:fj8rkt$vf6$1@koala.mat.uc.pt...
verb <notv@lid.com> wrote:
and carbonfibre
Again, do you want to see racing drivers die ?
By coincidence this weekend I saw in a magazine (French Sport-Auto, I think) a photo of Kubica's accident. Kubica's would have probably died or at least been very seriously injured in a 70's car.
Maybe they should stop making aeroplanes in aluminium then...
It should not take too long now. Each generation has more composite materials and less aluminium. Not that aeroplanes try to make most accidents survivable.
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