Coker: Steel Rim vs. Aluminum Rim

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GYXU > General > Coker: Steel Rim vs. Aluminum Rim 2 April 2005 11:50:31

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Coker: Steel Rim vs. Aluminum Rim
HardcoreCokerRider 15 March 2005 11:16:00
	I finally got my 2nd Coker built with my Airfoil rim on Saturday and had a chance to get a little bit of time riding it yesterday and today. Wow! Having ridden with the stock rim for three years, riding with the Airfoil rim made the Coker handle like a completely different machine! I can’t say that I like the Airfoil rim better or worse… though it is certainly stronger – so it is better in that regard. While the Airfoil rim makes the Coker extremely nimble and responsive, the lighter weight rim also makes it less stable. On the one hand it was nice to be able to maneuver and accelerate/decelerate with such little effort, but at the same time it was easy to over control when making high speed aggressive turns. The steel rim feels significantly more stable in aggressive turns due to its heavier weight and flywheel effect – you can just plan your entry, dive it to the desired lean angle, and essentially hold on for the ride! The aluminum rim Coker felt more skittish in aggressive turns and didn’t give you the same feel of locking into the turn as you get with the steel rim Coker. The greater weight/stability of the steel rim Coker seemed like it could be preferable in various specific riding circumstances. On the other hand, it was awesome to be able to plow up decently high curbs like they were nothing with my Airfoil Coker and hardly feel the impact! I can’t wait to do some drops that I wouldn’t attempt with my steel rim, too. I read that some Cokers now come with a stock aluminum rim. Is the steel rim still available? Does anyone know if Coker is planning to phase out the steel rim and only use aluminum rims? I just wanted to point out that the stock steel rim offers a specific type of handling that you won’t get from the aluminum rim which, in my opinion, is a real nice option to have at your disposal. I’m psyched to be able to have access to the aluminum Airfoil rim, which is incredible… but I’d hate to see steel rims disappear from the market. -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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John_childs 15 March 2005 11:39:02 [ permanent link ]
	You could always add weight to the Airfoil rim by taping or gluing some lead strips to the rim. Maybe crimping a lead fishing weight to each spoke. I suspect you'll get used to the change. You may even decide to try a 29er tube to save even more weight. -- john_childs - Guinness Mojo john_childs (att) hotmail (dott) com Gallery: '' (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/john_childs) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ john_childs's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/449 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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U-Turn 15 March 2005 15:45:28 [ permanent link ]
	I'd give you my old rim but it's too much fun tacoing it with my bare hands.... +----------------------------------------------------------------+ \|Attachment filename: tacoing a stock coker wheel with very little pressure (small).jpg\| \|Download attachment: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/287981\| +----------------------------------------------------------------+ -- U-Turn - Member of Generation XO Weep in the dojo... laugh on the battlefield. 'LiveWire Unicycles' (http://www.livewireunicycles.com) 'Strongest Coker Wheel in the World' (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/albup39) '29er Tire Study' (http://u-turn.unicyclist.com/29erTireStudy/) 'New York Unicycle Club' (http://www.newyorkunicycle.com) -- Dave Stockton ------------------------------------------------------------------------ U-Turn's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/691 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Rogeratunicycledotcom 15 March 2005 16:18:40 [ permanent link ]
	We have been doing some checking and just for the record. The Qu-Ax rim is not aluminium, but is steel with a brushed aluminium look. We don't have any of the Cokers here so I can not check - but my guess is that they are the same. Tacoing the steel rims. I would have said that the majority of the times that the problem with the steel rims that taco is that they are over tensioned or dramatically under-tensioned. Spoke tension is critical on these larger wheels and if you are used to tensioning normal wheels then you will over tension the longer spokes... use a spoke tensioner if you are not sure. The other problem is people riding with too low an air pressure and this then causes the tyre to squeal on the ground and just twists the rim into a taco shape. They do flex in a way that the aero rims don't; but for normal riding and if they are built correctly they are perfect for normal riding. I rode over 4000 miles on my standard rim before I changed it for an aero rim, this included a Polaris Challenge and several 24hour mountain bike races and I don't remember ever tacoing my rim. Roger -- rogeratunicycledotcom - ok ish Unicyclist ++++++++++++++++++++++ Unicycle.com in the UK www.unicycle.uk.com The UK's Unicycle Source ++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ rogeratunicycledotcom's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/4116 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Unisk8r 16 March 2005 01:16:15 [ permanent link ]
	Dave that's a hoot & a half!! You may build the world's strongest coker wheel, but you don't have to be the world's strongest man to taco a wheel based on mid-20th century technology! Hopefully Arrow Racing in Oregon is making more Airfoil rims as we speak. -- unisk8r - One Wheel Wander ------------------------------------------------------------------------ unisk8r's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/4660 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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HardcoreCokerRider 16 March 2005 02:18:11 [ permanent link ]
	While the Airfoil rim is much stronger than the steel rim (and the Stockton wheel is obviously MUCH stronger than the stock Airfoil wheelset), I truly believe that the stable handling characteristics (even with it's mid-20th century technology) of the steel rim are EXTREMELY desirable in various situations. A decent comparison would be the way a heavier motorcycle holds the road and feels more stable than a lighter bike. While many Coker riders on the forum may be trying everything they can think of to reduce the weight of their machine - which I will probably do, too - I will always want to have a nice, heavy, stable Coker as well. If you haven't already been riding on an Airfoil rim and you want a good way to notice the difference, just try some one-foot riding on a steel rim Coker and an Airfoil rim Coker. I can ride the steel rim Coker with one foot nearly endlessly, turning in any direction, with ease. One-foot riding on the Airfoil rim requires substantialy more effort. Of course, it will require less effort with more practice, but I don't think there is any denying the stability advantage of the heavier rim. -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Harper 16 March 2005 02:26:47 [ permanent link ]
	What is the weight difference between the stock steel and Airfoil rims? What is the weight of the tire and tube? I have always thought (it has always been part of my belief system) that most of the weight is in the tire and tube, not in the wheel. I'm wondering if what you experience is a vast difference in the wheel flexure, not a vast difference in the angular momentum. -- harper - TANKED at GASWORKS -Greg Harper B L U E S H I F T "My world view has come crashing down like a drunk clown on a giraffe, riding through a cactus patch..." -evil-nick on "Entry of the Gladiators" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ harper's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/426 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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HardcoreCokerRider 16 March 2005 02:47:21 [ permanent link ]
	harper wrote:> What is the weight difference between the stock steel and Airfoil> rims? What is the weight of the tire and tube? I have always thought> (it has always been part of my belief system) that most of the weight> is in the tire and tube, not in the wheel. I'm wondering if what you> experience is a vast difference in the wheel flexure, not a vast> difference in the angular momentum. I don't know what the weight difference is between the stock steel rim and the Airfoil rim, but I'm real curious to find out! Just from lugging it around, it seems like the Airfoil rim is a decent amount lighter. I assumed the difference in weight is due to the weight difference of the rims because my two Cokers are set up essentially identically, other than the rim (and a really worn out tire compared to a brand new one). I further speculated that the difference in handling was due to the difference in weight... but not being too knowledgable about physics (other than that related to aviation), I could certainly be wrong... and you may be correct. Are you indicating that perhaps the greater flexure (I assume the steel rim has greater flexure) provides greater stability? I assumed that the greater weight and flywheel effect was the main factor contributing to the greater stability... which seems to make a lot of sense to me. -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Harper 16 March 2005 03:06:42 [ permanent link ]
	HardcoreCokerRider wrote:> > Are you indicating that perhaps the greater flexure (I assume the> steel rim has greater flexure) provides greater stability?> I don't know, that's why I asked about the weight. There will be a big difference in the way a stiff wheel and a wonky wheel feel under the stresses to which you subject them (I have seen your videos). The steel rim will flex way more because it has such an inferior cross section. -- harper - TANKED at GASWORKS -Greg Harper B L U E S H I F T "My world view has come crashing down like a drunk clown on a giraffe, riding through a cactus patch..." -evil-nick on "Entry of the Gladiators" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ harper's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/426 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Johnfoss 16 March 2005 04:52:14 [ permanent link ]
	HardcoreCokerRider wrote:> Are you indicating that perhaps the greater flexure (I assume the> steel rim has greater flexure) provides greater stability? An interesting concept. Of course the amount of flex in each wheel will have more to do with the build and current condition of the spokes than what the rim's made out of. My Coker wheel is super heavy. If it was lighter, I'm sure I could ride it to work faster. The only heavier wheel I have (I assume) is my 45" big wheel, but the Coker wheel is still pretty heavy. If you ride Coker all the time, I can imagine being more attuned to the heaviness of the wheel. For me, I use the Coker mostly for work, and other unicycles for everything else. My next-most-common ride is probably my Wilder, which has a heavy Gazzalodi tire and Sun Doublewide rim. Even that's heavy. So where I can see extra weight being useful for a certain few moves you might do, in the long run I think even you will prefer a lighter wheel. -- johnfoss - The wilder Wilder John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone "jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com "Read the rules!" -- 'IUF Rulebook' (http://www.unicycling.org/iuf/rulebook/) -- 'USA Rulebook' (http://www.unicycling.org/usa/competition/) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ johnfoss's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/832 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Gerblefranklin 16 March 2005 10:49:49 [ permanent link ]
	Speaking of lightening up wheels, who's gonna be the first to have an ultra light/ultra strong coker wheel using 16 or 18 guage aermet spokes. Aermet, after doing more research from the pedal design thread, would be able to be a strong enough spoke with around 1/3-1/2 the mass, along with less diameter. I mentioned the material offhand to a sailor, and he said he already knew about it from sailing. One of his ships uses aermet rigging cables--2,000lb operating capacity, coming from _1/16"_ line, INCLUDING VINYL CASING. Seriously, I'd like to see someone make a wheel with aermet spokes, just to see what the difference is. Titanium won't work since the wheel will be too flexy. -- gerblefranklin - Trials Unicyclist http://gallery.unicyclist.com/Trials-Muni Nick's main man. "Democracy is just a word when the people are starving"-Immortal Technique * I need a profile hub, any condition, as long as the splines work! (PM me) * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ gerblefranklin's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/4295 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Klaas Bil 16 March 2005 12:06:04 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:26:47 -0600, "harper" wrote: What is the weight difference between the stock steel and Airfoil rims?>What is the weight of the tire and tube? Incidentally, I started a thread 8 days ago about just that. From what U-Turn and John Childs posted, I inferred/averaged: stock steel rim = 1860 g airfoil rim = 1235 g Coker tyre = 2000 g Coker tube = 540 g So the rim+tyre+tube is either 4400 g or 3775 g. Significant, but not earth-shocking I think. Spokes will add to rotational inertia, so assuming you use the same spokes in both cases, the relative difference of using one rim or the other is somewhat smaller still. Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict -- people who unicycle are shyly exhibitionistic - GILD
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Rogeratunicycledotcom 16 March 2005 14:12:05 [ permanent link ]
	Exact weight of steel rim without rim tape 1805 Exact weight of aero rim without rim tape 1232 Roger -- rogeratunicycledotcom - ok ish Unicyclist ++++++++++++++++++++++ Unicycle.com in the UK www.unicycle.uk.com The UK's Unicycle Source ++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ rogeratunicycledotcom's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/4116 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Klaas Bil 17 March 2005 11:28:19 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:12:05 -0600, "rogeratunicycledotcom" wrote: Exact weight of steel rim without rim tape 1805>Exact weight of aero rim without rim tape 1232 One thing to keep in mind is individual variation. Dave of Surly MC mentioned in another thread (Where to buy Large Marge) that the weight of Large Marge rims may vary as much as 10%, although it will usually stay within 5%. I can only assume that something similar holds for other rims, such as Coker's. Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict -- people who unicycle are shyly exhibitionistic - GILD
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Bugman 18 March 2005 00:33:13 [ permanent link ]
	I'm curious how much of that is due to what your used to. If you had two years of riding the airfoil under your belt, would you feel the same way? Will you be able to attain the same level of confidence with the airfoil as you now have with the steel rim? The reason I ask, is if I were to attempt any of the things I see you do on a steel rim I would be eating asphault. Same goes for the airfoil. PS What type of pedals do you use? -- bugman - Survivor 2004 Wolfman Duathalon -"Worried about rising sea levels? Move into the hills! I might be a hillbilly but when you're drinking saltwater in the 2nd floor of your beach condo, my mullet will be drier than a can of Skoal left open on a sunny day."- - maestro8 -"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."- - Albert Einstein ------------------------------------------------------------------------ bugman's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/3812 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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HardcoreCokerRider 18 March 2005 00:54:14 [ permanent link ]
	bugman wrote:> I'm curious how much of that is due to what your used to. If you had> two years of riding the airfoil under your belt, would you feel the> same way? Will you be able to attain the same level of confidence with> the airfoil as you now have with the steel rim?> The reason I ask, is if I were to attempt any of the things I see you> do on a steel rim I would be eating asphault. Same goes for the> airfoil. > PS What type of pedals do you use? I've actually wondered about that myself quite a bit (how much is due to what I'm used to)... and as of right now I'm fairly convinced that it is more due to an actual difference in the handling of the equipment than my familiarity with it... though I'm sure I'll get better as I get more familiar with the equipment through more riding time... but I don't think I'll EVER be as good (or at least as consistent) on the Airfoil Coker for certain maneuvers (steep banked turns) and certain types of riding... but I could be wrong - only time will tell, I suppose. Though it doesn't happen too frequently... I have eaten quite a bit of asphault since getting my Coker... and I expect that probably won't change anytime soon ! I use PRIMO (platform) pedals. Actually it looks like it's spelled "PR1MO" with a "1" instead on an "I". They are relatively light, pretty strong, fairly economically priced, and come in a nice assortment of colors. They come with back-up pins, though I have no idea how to put them in (they don't look like the standard screw-type pin as other platform pedals have) because I never had to replace them. I like the logo on the pedal caps, too - it's kinda cool - but I always lose the caps, anyway (gotta get in touch with the company and order like 20 extra caps, if possible!). Anyway, I like the pedals a lot... I have them on both of my Cokers. -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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HardcoreCokerRider 18 March 2005 03:18:18 [ permanent link ]
	One on one wrote:> I'm also wondering if the riding problems that you're experiencing> now are because you haven't gotten tuned into the new, tight, sports> car handling of the Airfoil rim. You've gotten so used to the much> more forgiving handling of the steel rim that if you try riding it the> same way , you end up over controlling with out realizing it. After> all, you could always ride it that way before, and if this is such an> incredible wheel, it should ride incredibly. The Airfoil Coker does ride incredibly... just differently. I do believe you are correct in regard to the handling as it pertains to how nimble and responsiveness the unicycle is with the Airfoil rim... so yes I will be able to transition from one turn into another quicker, for example... but I do believe that the greater flexure of the steel rim (as Harper pointed out) is a major factor that enables me to achieve the steep banked turns easily. Even if I can ultimately figure out how to achieve the same level of bank, just as aggressively (and with the same entry speed) with the stiffer Airfoil rim... do I really want to have to utilize the added effort and concentration to pull it off on the more high-performance, yet squirrely, Airfoil Coker? Especially since I'm riding in the City with lots of pot holes and eneven streets (and cars and pedestrians everywhere)... the added weight and stability of the heavier steel rim Coker is quite comforting. No matter how accustomed I get to the Airfoil Coker, I think it will always be easier (and probably safer) to do steep banked turns on the heavier Coker. > -Originally posted by One on one-> Once you get really comfortable on the Airfoil, you'll probably find> that you can do much more with it, including higher speed and steeper,> banked turns. Higher speeds, definitely. I'm not sure about the steeper, banked turns though... at least not from a decently fast entry speed, anyway. -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Trailguy 18 March 2005 04:53:16 [ permanent link ]
	Interesting discussion about rim flexure and the potential for it to vary significantly between Coker and Airfoil rims. I don't doubt that the difference in rims is, at least, partly responsible. But, the subject has me thinking about the other possible elements that may affect flexure and your tight turns performance. HUB - is your new hub the same as your old one? Same flange to flange distance and same flange diameter? SPOKES - are your new spokes the same as the old ones? WHEEL BUILD - is your new wheel build similar to the old as far as spoke tension? FRAME - same frame on both new and old? I am wondering if your experience of a radical performance difference between Coker rim and Airfoil rim might be exagerated by any of these other factors. -- trailguy - uni is great ------------------------------------------------------------------------ trailguy's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8788 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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HardcoreCokerRider 18 March 2005 08:19:05 [ permanent link ]
	trailguy wrote:> Interesting discussion about rim flexure and the potential for it to> vary significantly between Coker and Airfoil rims. I don't doubt that> the difference in rims is, at least, partly responsible. But, the> subject has me thinking about the other possible elements that may> affect flexure and your tight turns performance.> HUB - is your new hub the same as your old one? Same flange to flange> distance and same flange diameter?> SPOKES - are your new spokes the same as the old ones?> WHEEL BUILD - is your new wheel build similar to the old as far as> spoke tension?> FRAME - same frame on both new and old?> I am wondering if your experience of a radical performance difference> between Coker rim and Airfoil rim might be exagerated by any of these> other factors. You are correct... it is definitely a combination of factors regarding the wheel. I have the wider hub with the Airfoil rim... and the spoke tension is much tighter, as well. The frame and everything else is the same (except for the tire being worn bald on my steel-rim Coker). -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Rogeratunicycledotcom 19 March 2005 12:08:12 [ permanent link ]
	HardcoreCokerRider wrote:> Y I have the wider hub with the Airfoil rim... This is probably the main reason for not settling on the new wheel and hence finding corners better on the old rim. The wider hub is definatly less good for speed, the foot position is unnaturally wide and reduces the ability to spin. It also gives you greater load to turn the wheel using foot pressure so making it feel more "responsive" on turns. I think the wide hub on my unicycle took 1mph off my top cruising speed initially and it took me over 6 months to get back to anywhere near it. This being said it has produced a more nimble and versile machine because it is definately more manoeverable and better off road. Roger -- rogeratunicycledotcom - ok ish Unicyclist ++++++++++++++++++++++ Unicycle.com in the UK www.unicycle.uk.com The UK's Unicycle Source BUC12 22nd to 24th April 2005 http://www.unicycle.org.uk/buc ++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ rogeratunicycledotcom's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/4116 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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HardcoreCokerRider 22 March 2005 06:52:37 [ permanent link ]
	rogeratunicycledotcom wrote:> This is probably the main reason for not settling on the new wheel> and hence finding corners better on the old rim. The wider hub is> definatly less good for speed, the foot position is unnaturally wide> and reduces the ability to spin. It also gives you greater load to> turn the wheel using foot pressure so making it feel more "responsive"> on turns.> I think the wide hub on my unicycle took 1mph off my top cruising> speed initially and it took me over 6 months to get back to anywhere> near it. This being said it has produced a more nimble and versile> machine because it is definately more manoeverable and better off> road.> Roger Having accumulated some more time on my Airfoil Coker... and comparing it to my steel rim (smaller hub) Coker, I am in complete agreement with your assessment, Roger. Wow... this is a LOT more complex than I had realized - weight, flexure, hub width, etc. (I'm sure Harper can throw in a bunch of others)! For speed, I prefer the steel rim over the Airfoil rim by a good margin. It definitely feels like I can really spin that steel rim a LOT better. Though I had inititially thought I'd prefer the Airfoil rim for top speed due to it's lighter weight, it turned out not to be the case at all. While it does accelerate and decelerate faster... that may be one of the reasons I like it less... being able to maintain a good constant speed more easily (over varying terrain) with the steel rim is quite nice. The even more important factor, however, seems to be the lateral motion of the wheel. Though, as Roger pointed out, it is more responsive due, in part, to the wider hub... I think that greater responsiveness also causes greater lateral motion of the wheel. It seems like I can keep the wheel on my steel rim (small hub) Coker a lot straighter, a lot more easily than my Airfoil Coker with the wide hub. Now if only it were possible to somehow engineer a small hub that offered the benefits of the big one! -- HardcoreCokerRider - Skateparks, MTB & Urban Insanity ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HardcoreCokerRider's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/8529 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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Billblogs 2 April 2005 11:50:31 [ permanent link ]
	You guys can take the fun out of everything! I am waiting for a Dave Stockton wheel as I enjoy but curse my original wheel a few times a week. The weight and my freemounting ability are one thing, but what I worry about is all the creaking, flexing, being unable to true it and yes the original rim has done the taco with a guy (not me) of about 100kgs bunny hopping. Metalurgically (nice word) speaking, steel is an alloy of carbon and iron, so not all alloys are other metals like aluminium. Steels of various alloys (% carbon) can be heat treated for toughness, hardness and tensile strength. So...ooo, if weight is great, why doesn't some company make a higher grade steel alloy rim that has the weight but can overcome all the other Coker problems. In other word, a strong steel rim. What about cromo etc. I look forward to getting my Dave Stockton wheel and only then will I know what you are all talking about. Mal www.municycle.com.au -- billblogs ------------------------------------------------------------------------ billblogs's Profile: http://www.unicyclist.com/profile/9196 View this thread: http://www.unicyclist.com/thread/38891
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GYXU > General > Coker: Steel Rim vs. Aluminum Rim 2 April 2005 11:50:31

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Coker: Steel Rim vs. Aluminum Rim

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