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GYXU > General > More swampings 25 April 2005 21:22:00
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More swampings

Carl Douglas 21 April 2005 22:29:39
 Lest we forget.

We are awaiting the new inquest ordered by the High Court into the death
of Leo Blockley in December 2000 - perhaps at the end of June.

So here's a timely reminder, flagged by RQ, that most crew shells lack
adequate buoyancy. This article from the US shows, yet again, that even
under controlled conditions crew shells do swamp & sink when it gets
rough, & that this is dangerous:

http://www.palatkad­ailynews.com/article­s/2005/04/19/sports/­sports01.txt

"Twenty-five high school rowing teams from Florida and Georgia were to
spend Saturday competing for trophies and bragging rights in the
Gainesville Crew Spring Classic at Palatka riverfront, but persistent
north winds made conditions much too dangerous, and officials stop the
event following the first race.

" 'We waited for a good while, before we decided to cancel the race,'
said chief official Kay Quinn of Gainesville. 'The winds were not
letting up at all, and one boat had been swamped in the race this
morning.'

"The starting six teams had a tough time lining up beneath Memorial
Bridge in the early light, and when they were given the green light to
race south, they found the wind and waves tough and treacherous, with
every boat taking on water as they crossed the finish line.

"Quinn said despite the cancellation, the crowd of nearly 500 —
including students, parents, teachers and vendors — had a great time.

" 'Even if the competition is stopped,' said race director Jeff Davis of
Gainesville, earlier that morning, 'there's plenty of food and
camaraderie to enjoy.' "

In short, the equipment design was unsafe for those conditions. It
appears that the water was rowable, since crews were out there & racing,
but the boats couldn't cope. An attempt was made to hold the regatta
which, when several kids took an early bath in uncontrolled conditions,
proved that point beyond doubt. Then, instead of drawing the obvious
conclusion - that we'd better do something about the equipment - the
swampings were just accepted as part of the fun & everyone got on with
having a picnic. Did no one there get a queasy feeling about the
"what-ifs", realising that another time it might easily have been the
prelude to a tragedy, not a party?

It is long overdue for rowing administrators at all levels to accept the
irrationality of kids rowing boats which can suddenly dump them when it
gets a bit rough. Next time might be too late for someone, just as it
was for Leo after his eight sank.

Carl
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Add comment
Ewoud Dronkert 22 April 2005 01:15:33 [ permanent link ]
 On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:02:47 -0400, Charles Huthmaker wrote:>> It appears that the water was rowable, since crews were out there & racing,>> but the boats couldn't cope.>
I think you completely contrasted yourself. If the boats can't cope, the> water is unrowable not rowable.

That's why he said "appears".


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Add comment
Charles Huthmaker 22 April 2005 03:24:02 [ permanent link ]
 Thanks for the notice! I have been gone for a few years from RSR and
finally returned a week ago.

I actually agree on all of the points that have been made. I guess my
overall goal was to point out the lack of educated coaches in the US and the
value it affords.

I have always respected Carl and his posts and his expertise on RSR.

I think that the USA is too wrought up in protecting people from themselves
and always point the finger at equipment and manufacturers instead of
expecting responsibility and education.

Anyway, safety first, racing second.

Charles


.googlegroups.com..­.> Charles Huthmaker wrote:>> > In short, the equipment design was unsafe for those conditions. It>
appears that the water was rowable, since crews were out there &> racing,>> > but the boats couldn't cope.>>
I think you completely contrasted yourself. If the boats can't cope,> the>> water is unrowable not rowable.>
Hi, Charles. (We've met.)>
I thought I'd give you a quick heads up that boat swampings and> buoyancy are very discussed issues on r.s.r. these days. I don't know> if you've been on the newsgroup recently, but Carl has worked very hard> for boat safety, specifically buoyancy such that boats can be rowed> when swamped. Passions run high, although most people on this> newsgroup would agree that safety is important and the sort of buoyancy> improvements Carl has advocated are wise.>
Just a heads up. This is pretty well walked over territory.>


Add comment
Nick Suess 22 April 2005 03:28:48 [ permanent link ]
 
"Charles Huthmaker" <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> wrote in message
news:BfOdnSS6N_n5iP­XfRVn-hA@comcast.com­...
I think instead of forcing the issue on boat manufacturers,

Now just hold on a minute.

So to you, suggesting that manufacturers should build boats to a standard
which would radically reduce the risk of drowning their crew members in the
event of swamping is seen as "forcing the issue".
....... more emphasis> should be put on the training and education of rowers and coaches.

which as you say below is to teach them to stay with the boat ......
.......All of> the boats I use on a daily/yearly basis won't sink if you swamp.

.... and that boat they must at all costs stay with hasn't "sunk" in terms
of going clean to the bottom, but is floating totally submerged beneath cold
water, the waves may be going clean over the crew's heads, and the effect of
wind and current may be sweeping them away from the boat, but cling on, and
you'll be fine, d'ya hear cling on, no don't go all hypothermic on me, cling
on..............

The "issue" that Carl, the Blockleys, and many of us are trying to "force"
is that the boat should support its seated crew even when it is full of
water to the saxboards. Do all of the boats you use on a daily/yearly basis
do this? Do you argue the point that a rower thus seated with his/her torso
in air, not cold water, is safer than one who is totally immersed in that
cold water clinging to a submerged vessel?

Nick Suess



Add comment
Mpruscoe 22 April 2005 23:42:48 [ permanent link ]
 anton2468@aol.com wrote:> [snip]>
Charles>
I would be interested in what sort of exposure the issue of boat> buoyancy gets in your circle of colleages/rowing sector? Or perhaps in> the USA in general?

You have to wonder when one of the US boat manufacturers makes eights
without even a sealed bow compartment, but with a hatch behind the bow
seat even though there's no bulkhead between the bow footwell and the
bowball.
Add comment
Henning Lippke 23 April 2005 15:48:48 [ permanent link ]
 Jonny wrote:
Airbags in cars are great,> but better trained drivers might never need to be saved by one. Better> training can be given to everyone a lot quicker than boat fleets can be> replaced or modified.

There's a difference:

In driving, it's mostly a fault of the driver when an accident happens.

In rowing, it's often the fault of the weather, when a boat swamps. So
you have to educate the weather gods that they should wait with sending
out thunderstorms et al while rowing boats are on the water. That will
be expensive, I bet.

Education should be given to people who then should realise that the
easiest solution is to make their boats buoyant.
Add comment
Richard Packer 23 April 2005 19:19:41 [ permanent link ]
 On 22 Apr 2005 17:01:26 -0700, "Jonny" <jonny.cantwell@big­pond.com>
wrote:
However, a modern 8 with an open bow? Heaven help us!

Exactly! Why is it that we expect fully enclosed bow and stern
compartments in "modern" boats, yet happily accept a fully open 19th
century structure elsewhere?

R
Add comment
Nick Suess 24 April 2005 07:27:56 [ permanent link ]
 "Charles Huthmaker" <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> wrote in message
news:cY-dnWNc3Jo_lP­bfRVn-vA@comcast.com­...> OK, this is my last post on this issue as it has obviously made the rounds> and has been well thought out by professionals.

We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.
(snip)> Sorry Carl but I still think education is still grossly under used here in> the states, (no idea on GB or other countries) and can be a great tool.> (snip)

No matter how much education you give a crew, if an underbuoyant boat
swamps, they are immersed, if a fully buoyant boat swamps, they are not.
It's basic Archimedes' Principle, as fundamentally simple as that.

Let's do our very best to try and avoid ever hearing the Last Post played
for any more of our rowing comrades.

Nick Suess


Add comment
Charles Huthmaker 24 April 2005 16:08:20 [ permanent link ]
 
We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.


What is ANZAC day?

Charles


Add comment
Nick Suess 24 April 2005 17:27:43 [ permanent link ]
 
"Charles Huthmaker" <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> wrote in message
news:q7SdnXKcIPgAEf­bfRVn-pg@comcast.com­...> > We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.>
What is ANZAC day?>
Charles

I believe your own phrase was "education is still grossly under used here"


Add comment
Charles Huthmaker 24 April 2005 20:09:56 [ permanent link ]
 
We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.>>
What is ANZAC day?>>
Charles>
I believe your own phrase was "education is still grossly under used here">
Let's see.....

My first college degree is in music and math.
My second attempt at college was in materials engineering and industrial
design (I left this because I didn't like it, while on honor roll)
My current master's degree is being recieved in Exercise Physiology

My careers are in music and coaching rowing.

My last history classes were 18 years ago and despite a voracious reading
habit in many fileds, I had seen the term ANZAC but didn't remember what it
meant.

Forgive me if my efforts in education don't mirror yours.

Thank you Carl for educating me about ANZAC day instead of sarcasically
noticing my lack of knowledge in a field that I haven't studied.

Cheers.

Charles


Add comment
Ewoud Dronkert 24 April 2005 20:18:04 [ permanent link ]
 On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 12:09:56 -0400, Charles Huthmaker wrote:> Thank you Carl for educating me about ANZAC day instead of sarcasically> noticing my lack of knowledge in a field that I haven't studied.

Lighten up, Francis. You should have just googled it, first hit nails
it.


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Add comment
Ewoud Dronkert 24 April 2005 20:49:11 [ permanent link ]
 On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:45:23 +0200, I wrote:> Sigh.

Oh and, when in doubt, always remember to imagine a ";)" under my posts.


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Add comment
Nick Suess 25 April 2005 03:29:30 [ permanent link ]
 
"Charles Huthmaker" <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> wrote in message
news:x7Odnf2fc8yhWP­bfRVn-jg@comcast.com­...>
We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.> >>
What is ANZAC day?> >>
Charles> >
I believe your own phrase was "education is still grossly under used
here"> >
Let's see.....>
My first college degree is in music and math.> My second attempt at college was in materials engineering and industrial> design (I left this because I didn't like it, while on honor roll)> My current master's degree is being recieved in Exercise Physiology>
My careers are in music and coaching rowing.>
My last history classes were 18 years ago and despite a voracious reading> habit in many fileds, I had seen the term ANZAC but didn't remember what
meant.>
Forgive me if my efforts in education don't mirror yours.

Well, me old matey, I didn't study history, nor ever make my career in it.
And yet I know about about many of the battles of your civil war, and names
like Grant, Lee, Sherman and Jackson are not lost on me. I know about all
your presidents, who they sleep with, when they get shot, and even who did
or didn't shoot them as the case may be. I can even name your fifty states,
but wonder if you could name our six. It's just the idea of keeping myself
moderately well informed on the significant events and history of countries
other than my own.

And the Last Post, in case you didn't know it, is our version of what you
call "Taps". Got it? OK!


Add comment
Charles Huthmaker 25 April 2005 05:03:26 [ permanent link ]
 Nick,

Check your email. This thread is ridiculous. I apologize to all RSRs for
this tangent.

Let's move on shall we?

Charles

"Nick Suess" <nick@scull.com.au>­ wrote in message
news:426c2abd@dnews­.tpgi.com.au...>
"Charles Huthmaker" <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> wrote in message> news:x7Odnf2fc8yhWP­bfRVn-jg@comcast.com­...>>
We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.>> >>
What is ANZAC day?>> >>
Charles>> >
I believe your own phrase was "education is still grossly under used> here">> >
Let's see.....>>
My first college degree is in music and math.>> My second attempt at college was in materials engineering and industrial>> design (I left this because I didn't like it, while on honor roll)>> My current master's degree is being recieved in Exercise Physiology>>
My careers are in music and coaching rowing.>>
My last history classes were 18 years ago and despite a voracious reading>> habit in many fileds, I had seen the term ANZAC but didn't remember what> it>> meant.>>
Forgive me if my efforts in education don't mirror yours.>
Well, me old matey, I didn't study history, nor ever make my career in it.> And yet I know about about many of the battles of your civil war, and > names> like Grant, Lee, Sherman and Jackson are not lost on me. I know about all> your presidents, who they sleep with, when they get shot, and even who did> or didn't shoot them as the case may be. I can even name your fifty > states,> but wonder if you could name our six. It's just the idea of keeping myself> moderately well informed on the significant events and history of > countries> other than my own.>
And the Last Post, in case you didn't know it, is our version of what you> call "Taps". Got it? OK!>


Add comment
Chris Wade 25 April 2005 13:31:07 [ permanent link ]
 On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:30:08 +0100, Carl Douglas
<Carl@carldouglas.c­o.uk> wrote:
Charles Huthmaker <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> writes>>> We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.>>
What is ANZAC day?>>
Charles>>
It remembers the troops of Australia, New Zealand & Canada who fell, >particularly in the grim struggles of Gallipoli during WW-I, but also in >other fields of World conflict. They died, the politicians said, that >we might live. They fought & died with incredible courage in the most >awful circumstances, sometimes under callous & inane generalship. Lions >led by donkeys.>

Carl - slight correction from an acronym perspective... ANZAC was the
term given to the Australian and New Zealand Army Corp. Whilst ANZAC
day might also have been selected by the Canadian veterans groups as
the day on which they remember and commerate the losses during the
first world war, but I couldn't comment on that.

Cheers,

Chris
Add comment
Conor O'Neill 26 April 2005 01:42:27 [ permanent link ]
 
"Carl Douglas" <Carl@carldouglas.c­o.uk> wrote in message
news:EocDKcBg95aCFw­Qh@rowing-cdrs.demon­.co.uk...> Charles Huthmaker <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> writes>>> We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.>>
What is ANZAC day?>>
Charles>>
It remembers the troops of Australia, New Zealand & Canada who fell, > particularly in the grim struggles of Gallipoli during WW-I, but also in > other fields of World conflict. They died, the politicians said, that we > might live. They fought & died with incredible courage in the most awful > circumstances, sometimes under callous & inane generalship. Lions led by > donkeys.

Well, one could argue that you're a bit behind on the historiography on that
one. Recent scholarship has tended to re-habilitate some of the WW1
generals, Haig especially - not totally, but judging their actions in the
proper context, rather than with the benefit of massive hindsight. Oh What
a Lovely War and the trench poets have tended to slant the historical debate
on WW1 a touch. The failures at Galipoli certainly owed a lot to middle
ranking staff officers (the lack of maps etc), rather than solely the higher
level commanders, though of course the nature of military history results in
their names being attached to the disaster.

Anyway - probably more one for soc.military.histor­y that here....

Conor



Add comment
Carl Douglas 26 April 2005 01:54:34 [ permanent link ]
 Puca <puca@mindspring.co­m> writes>
Carl Douglas wrote:>> Charles Huthmaker <chuthmak@comcast.n­et> writes>> >> We'll save the Last Post for tomorrow, as it's ANZAC Day.>> >
What is ANZAC day?>> >
Charles>> >
It remembers the troops of Australia, New Zealand & Canada who fell>...>
Sorry Carl,>ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps.>www.nzhistor­y.net.nz/Gallery/Anz­ac/Anzac.htm>http://­www.anzacsite.gov.au­/>Sorry, our Canadian cousins didn't make to this one.>
I attempted to post a rather swift retraction, quickly following my
original screw-up, but it just didn't get through. In it I noted that
the Canadians would doubtless have joined in worthily, but this was not
their show.

And, re Conor's comments, I'll just say that I actually wrote:> sometimes under callous & inane generalship

BTW, I was deeply touched by Helen Clarke's quotation of the words of
Kemal Ataturk during the ceremony in Gallipoli.

Carl
--
Carl Douglas
Add comment
Nick Suess 26 April 2005 05:28:49 [ permanent link ]
 
"Puca" <puca@mindspring.co­m> wrote in message
news:1114465946.600­298.12260@z14g2000cw­z.googlegroups.com..­.
Sorry Carl,> ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps.> www.nzhistory.net.n­z/Gallery/Anzac/Anza­c.htm> http://www.anzacsit­e.gov.au/> Sorry, our Canadian cousins didn't make to this one.>

Yes, I wrote to Carl privately over this to save his embarrassment, but he
has now been outed.

And Charles wrote to me privately, and I'm sorry to have upset him over
this. With ANZAC being the most sacred and revered day in our calendar, I
guess that asking an Aussie "what's ANZAC Day?" is like asking an American
"What's the 4th of July?" a Frenchman "What's Bastille Day?" or an Irishman
"What's St Paddy's?"

I don't think the poms are the same about St Georges Day, and few would have
noticed its occurrence at the weekend. But Shakespeare had a bit of thing
about it.


Add comment
Nick Suess 26 April 2005 12:53:17 [ permanent link ]
 
What's lacking in American culture is culture.

Yes, but I enjoyed the ball game we went to on that last visit, and the 4th
of July aquatic parade was kind of fun.>
Our arrogance is matched in our boundlessness as is our> ignorance of history.

Thought your government simply made that up as they went along>
Our own president is unlikely to be able to name> half of his predecessors.

Now be fair Sully. He'd come right out and say the bald eagle, the coyote,
the mountain lion, and something else with sharp teeth and claws (named
Condoleeza maybe???)

Nick


Add comment
Nick Suess 26 April 2005 14:20:07 [ permanent link ]
 
"Carl Douglas" <Carl@carldouglas.c­o.uk> wrote in message
news:hsCKr7BYR9aCFw­UK@rowing-cdrs.demon­.co.uk...
2. Please don't worry about Nick, he means well & he's very much on our> side. Australians & Brits, (& some Dutch) have this peculiar tendency> to see a nifty punch in the guts as a friendly greeting - rather in the> way a bull terrier greets a new-found friend.

Now I know what it feels like to be labelled as "Mostly Harmless"!



Add comment


Carl Douglas 26 April 2005 22:50:22 [ permanent link ]
 Nick Suess <nick@scull.com.au>­ writes >
<snippage>>
However, returning to rowing (remember that?), and the topic of this thread,>Leo Blockley didn't die because he lacked education, he died because the>boat he was in lacked buoyancy.>
And from Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA, again thanks to RQ:-

http://www.mlive.co­m/preps/grpress/inde­x.ssf?/base/sports-8­/1114337942453
10.xml
"Only four of the more than 50 scheduled races were run
Saturday morning before the regatta was canceled. The
event, which was canceled for similar reasons in just its
second year, 1997, will not be rescheduled as most of the
prep rowing teams have other regattas scheduled each
weekend throughout the season.
" 'The river looks good here at the finish line,' said Forest
Hills Central coach John Gaskin, whose Rangers host the
annual regatta. 'Down at the start, though, the waves are
(about one foot high). It just wasn't safe to continue.'
"Don LeBlanc, who brought high school crew to West
Michigan, initiated the first annual regatta and after whom
is named the trophy presented to the regatta's winning
men's team, just shrugged his shoulders after the races
were canceled.
" 'It's April in Michigan,' he said. 'That's the chance we
take. This has happened only one other time. The varsity
kids might be OK in these conditions, but it's dangerous
for the novice rowers. We don't want anyone to get hurt.
It's a safety issue.' "

In such conditions safety may be aided by good training, but no amount
of training can remove the danger of being out in swamping conditions in
an under-buoyant shell.

1ft waves are unsafe for non-buoyant crew shells, because such waves
come enough bigger waves to put large volumes of water straight into the
boats. Once that starts, crew shells fill up ever-faster until they
swamp & sink. Yet 1ft waves are hardly uncommon, especially in the early
part of the year.

More experienced crews might have better managed to row in those
conditions, but no amount of skill & experience would reduce wave height
or the rate of influx. Indeed, greater crew weight would have worked
against them by reducing freeboard. And, once you are a swimmer in cold
(April in Michigan), rough water & skimpy clothing, you are in dire
danger - training or no training. Yet in such conditions no crew of a
fully buoyant shell would have had cause to contemplate total immersion.

Early cancellation was a wise call but leaves this regatta with an
unenviable 1 in 4 cancellation rate. However crews still train in such
conditions, in under-buoyant shells & without a regatta's safety cover.
How many are then accompanied by fully weather-worthy launches capable
of uplifting 9 swimmers? Past events in the US have shown that many
(?most) are not, & they have shown just how swiftly things go wrong when
conditions unexpectedly change.

Only full shell buoyancy can prevent swamping from becoming sinking,
sinking from becoming swimming & swimming from becoming potential death.

Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWin­g low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co­.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.­uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)

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GYXU > General > More swampings 25 April 2005 21:22:00
see also:
In England
pass tests:
see also:
http://demish.gyxu.com/i/temp/2/128...
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