I'm inclined to agree with zmurf i use the duck, jab and hope for the best!!! an epeeist at salisbury Fc is the king of fleche! he has 3 move to his name a fast fleche, slow fleche and some weird fleche with a slight pause in the middle so the duck and jab works for me!
Harald Kirschner 19 April 2005 19:11:02 [ permanent link ]
"keith" <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:4264eba4$0$323$4d4eb98e@read.news.fi.uu.net...> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?>
t,Keith
Hi!
Which weapon - l'épée, I suppose?
I use Quart-Parade if the opponent is right-handed. Sixt if he is left-handed (because he passes on Your other side).
You may then turn around and hit him on his back.
CU
Harald
Besides Hi to everybody, this is my first massage here on this group.
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"keith" <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> wrote in message news:4264eba4$0$323$4d4eb98e@read.news.fi.uu.net...> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?>
t,Keith>
Sorry, i forgot to mention, Epee. Also I know the oponent will attempt using a fleche to score a point. Fleche is his thing! Is there any good way to make him fleche when I want him to?
Jonathan Jefferies 22 April 2005 12:30:39 [ permanent link ]
Colin B. wrote:> keith <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> wrote:>
Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?>
Fence left-handed. Fleches against an opposite-handed opponent are a> pain, since you have to pass on their unarmed side.>
Alternatively, keep to the far side of the piste, so that a fleche will> be difficult to pull off without leaving the strip.>
I'm told also that stepping into a developing fleche will throw off most> opponents. Others may be able to comment further.>
Colin
Are we talking epee or foil?? In epee, being at the greater distance the practical alternatives that I would use are: 1. make sure not to let your opponent have control of your blade. They can still fleche but their chances of success are much less. If they fleche without taking control in either sixth or eighth you have two opportunities to hit them: a. to the wrist/arm (it's extended) b. parry sixth. if need be backup and parry sixth and then riposte or make the parry a binding parry sixth or eighth with thrust. 2. If they have control of the blade, you have to regain control with a. a disengagement (possibly moving backward) with thrust to their wrist/arm or body as distance allows. b. displacement of your body to avoid their blade (difficult but not impossible). 3. stepping into the fleche to close the distance is possible but the heart of a good fleche is the attacker finding a moment of surprise. So for an epeeists receiving a fleche would (IMHO) rather open the distance to make time to take control of the blades.
Always take Sun Tzu's commentary on war to heart and forestall your opponent's plans. If that doesn't work, attack into his preparations. The first is to keep moving and not allow them to set up a fleche. The latter deals with attacking just at the moment they start their attack. Many fencers will raise the blade slightly at the start of an attack exposing the wrist and opening themselves to preemptive attack to the wrist. BTW this is heresy to my coach who much prefers to take the conservative approach and clear the blade with a parry before thrusting whereas I prefer the wrist shot as a first step followed by a parry. His approach is probably more sensible.
Binds work very well against flechers in epee as well. I usually take one step back as I do the action to give myself enough time and distance to clear the point, but it usually works wonders against opponents that depend on this move. However, I am left-handed, which I feel like makes it easier for me to bind a right-hander's blade to second, or even prime, position. This may be more difficult in a right-right or left-left matchup.
Joseph Kormann 23 April 2005 06:29:21 [ permanent link ]
keith wrote:> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?>
t,Keith
One response that I've used successfully and which many will consider insane is to take a prime parry and *lunge*. I've found it to mostly work for the following reasons: - They're not expecting it. - Well all practice lunges to be fast and reflexive so the muscle memory is there. - A good prime parry will generally sweep the area ahead of you clearing their blade to the side.
Disadvantages: - You're out of reach for the obligatory riposte. - You're accelerating into their acceleration. Bad things can happen if the technique and equipment fail simultaneously.
As someone already noted, you don't want to make this into a permanent habit. It'll work once, maybe twice. Don't expect a third to be 100% successful.
keith Wrote: > Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?>
t,Keith
Take a prime parry and riposte in 7 by just the turn of the wrist, maybe with a step back, if necessary -- I'm left-handed, and it works either against RH or LH fencers.
Or, my favorite flashier option is prime and riposte by moulinet -- except if their fleche is too fast, or they are left-handed, this doesn't work as often.
I'll have to disagree on the use of the prime (as mentioned in the last two posts... If I misread the intentions of the post, I apologise in advance).
The prime in general is not a good primary parry. It leaves too big an opening in your defenses to be used with any kind of consistency agains a competent fencer. My advice (something I try to do myself) is to stick to the standard 4,6 and 8 (or 2) parries as a first line of defense, with 5 and prime as backups (5 for extended attacks into your 4 line, prime as a counter to 6 opposition attacks).
Symon Wrote: > nah you DO NOT want to parry in prime against a fleche, prime is always> kept for close quarters fencing!!!
If you close distance against the fleche while parrying 1, it makes sure that the flecher cannot remise, and it sets you up for a close-range riposte. I use it prime all the time against the fleche in foil.
You have to be sure that the flecher is aiming for your chest, though, and that he will not have time to disengage.
Joseph Kormann 26 April 2005 02:50:29 [ permanent link ]
Symon wrote:> nah you DO NOT want to parry in prime against a fleche, prime is always> kept for close quarters fencing!!!>
The purpose of prime in my reply wasn't to continue fencing, it was to prevent a fleche from landing. A prime is a big, sweeping parry that when executed in a timely fashion will catch the opponent's blade, as they go zooming by, keeping the point from hitting you. A counter-attack isn't the goal, preventing the touch is.
If you want to keep fencing after they fleche past, there are other techniques already mentioned that will do it. A counter-sixte with a quick wrist flip is effective, an eight in quatra (I think that's the right term -- hand supponated, blade in eight), etc.
Actually, that's exactly the problem. It's big, meaning it's slow (slower than a more compact parry at least), and it's predictable. To me, it's only useful in close quarters (ie. when you've messed up the distance and the opponent is much closer than he/she should be), or as a counter to a sixte opposition. As a stand-alone parry, it's too easily defeated. And I use my prime to score all the time. Properly executed, it does close out your inside line, while keeping your point in line with low target.
Joseph Kormann 27 April 2005 02:35:08 [ permanent link ]
Fechter1 wrote:>>A prime is a big, sweeping parry >
Actually, that's exactly the problem. It's big, meaning it's slow> (slower than a more compact parry at least), and it's predictable. To> me, it's only useful in close quarters (ie. when you've messed up the> distance and the opponent is much closer than he/she should be), or as> a counter to a sixte opposition. As a stand-alone parry, it's too> easily defeated.
So when I use it against you, you'll be plenty surprised. If you note how I was originally using it, it was part of a lunge and solely for defense against a FOIL fleche. A prime in foil is bound to be faster than a prime in epee, and a sudden close-in-distance wrt the lunge will make it appear faster.
And I use my prime to score all the time. Properly executed, it does> close out your inside line, while keeping your point in line with low> target.
Yup. Kinda hard to get a riposte score when they're fleched past you though. If you want to try it, I'm in West Chester, about 40 minutes east of you.
It works in Epee too against fleche, only you start the parry with 6th parry and then move to prime for a close in riposte as they are going by you or just behind you - not just doing the prime movement from the beginning. Or at least thats how I do it
rmyounis Wrote: > It works in Epee too against fleche, only you start the parry with 6th> parry and then move to prime for a close in riposte as they are going> by you or just behind you - not just doing the prime movement from the> beginning. Or at least thats how I do it
I've done it in epee as well, but I find that good fencers either have already hit me, hit me on my very exposed arm disengage and hit me, or go into the position themselves and hit. It's much more risky in epee than foil.
Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?>
t,Keith
distance, distance, distance.
If you watch your distance and keep to it, there's no problem with fleches - u maintain the distance, moving back with them and essentially nullifying the attack, and either parry reposte or just counter attack.
Martin (posting under sarah's account) __________________________________________________________________________ grep me no patterns and I'll tell you no lines
