Basketball players, at a very young age, learn to use either foot as a pivot.
Ultimate players on the other hand, learn to use their off-handed foot (if they're a righty, they learn to establish their left foot) as their pivot*.
They do this to the extent that it has become an entitlement that often times leads to an extra [illegal] step that should be called for traveling. Just because you're a mediocre player who can't use the same foot as your throwing arm for a pivot does not entitle you to an extra step.
I will call this travel violation early and often and I just can't wait for some incompetent observer to overrule me.
*There is some logic behind off-handed pivot feet, but on the other hand, any so called *elite* player should be able to use either just as effectively and in fact, there are plenty of advantages to planting your right foot if you're a righty.
Frank Huguenard 31 July 2008 21:16:28 [ permanent link ]
Hypothetically, just to help visualize this, let's just say you're limited to three steps for traveling. OK?
Seeing as how everybody in Ultimate Frisbee naturally comes to a stop on their pivot foot, that would mean that 100% of the time, when they catch the disc, they are also landing on the ground with their first step on that same foot. Make sense? [step one left foot (catch), step two right foot, step three, left foot (plant and pivot)].
However, in reality, players come down with the disc with either foot, probably around 50/50 each (maybe even 80/20, it doesn't matter). Which means that for that percentage of time that they actually have their right foot as first ground contact, they'll always take an extra step to plant their left foot (and to add insult to injury, they'll then pivot off that foot without ever stopping making for a fifth step).
Seeing as how the entire Ultimate Nation adheres to this same entitlement and that standards are nothing more than collective interpretations, making calls that even the Observers wouldn't call means that correct calls will routinely be overturned.
"T1000" <atanarjuat@gmail.com> wrote in message news:fedf6ddd-ef30-426f-bb23-d352b137e305@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... Hm. Not sure what you mean by this.
I don't "often" see players taking unnecessary "extra" steps to set their pivots.
But hey, if you're sure someone travelled, then you should call it. Good on you.
On Jul 31, 10:25 am, "Frank Huguenard" <fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Basketball players, at a very young age, learn to use either foot as a
pivot.
Ultimate players on the other hand, learn to use their off-handed foot (if
they're a righty, they learn to establish their left foot) as their
pivot*.
They do this to the extent that it has become an entitlement that often
times leads to an extra [illegal] step that should be called for
traveling.
Just because you're a mediocre player who can't use the same foot as your
throwing arm for a pivot does not entitle you to an extra step.
I will call this travel violation early and often and I just can't wait
for
some incompetent observer to overrule me.
*There is some logic behind off-handed pivot feet, but on the other hand,
any so called *elite* player should be able to use either just as
effectively and in fact, there are plenty of advantages to planting your
Frank Huguenard 31 July 2008 21:21:44 [ permanent link ]
Give and go moves off of your right foot can be more explosive. You can get more power on a huck pivoting on your right foot. Your marker may initially assume you're a lefty.
"jacob" <jacobsider@gmail.com> wrote in message news:8b6d007c-abeb-499d-b0ab-1a4b14376c38@a21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
"there are plenty of advantages to planting your right foot if you're
Frank Huguenard 31 July 2008 21:49:45 [ permanent link ]
"Peterson" <pevesteterson@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f4dc0173-1d78-47b3-ab22-7341efe90526@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... On Jul 31, 2:16 pm, "Frank Huguenard" <fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Hypothetically, just to help visualize this, let's just say you're limited
to three steps for traveling. OK?
I hope you're not calling travels based on your hypothetical 3 steps.
Of course not, just trying to illustrate to make it easier for you to visualize.
Seeing as how everybody in Ultimate Frisbee naturally comes to a stop on
their pivot foot, that would mean that 100% of the time, when they catch
the
disc, they are also landing on the ground with their first step on that
same
foot. Make sense? [step one left foot (catch), step two right foot, step
three, left foot (plant and pivot)].
not sure how this relates to your "entitlement theory"
It's not a theory. It's a fact.
However, in reality, players come down with the disc with either foot,
probably around 50/50 each (maybe even 80/20, it doesn't matter). Which
means that for that percentage of time that they actually have their right
foot as first ground contact, they'll always take an extra step to plant
their left foot (and to add insult to injury, they'll then pivot off that
foot without ever stopping making for a fifth step).
I'm a righty-
If I am running and/or jump in the air, catch the disc, and land on my right foot and then make a contact with my left foot, then my right foot, and then set my left as my pivot - how is that a travel?
How fast are you running? If you can stop in two steps, do so. If you can stop in three do so.
The rules say come to a stop in as few steps as possible. They don't say, take as few steps as possible to plant your left foot as a pivot.
The proof is this. Next time you play, try playing the whole day with your right foot as pivot. In your example above, you would either be taking 3 steps or 5 steps (there's no inbetween). This is a fact. True?
Since this is the case, you won't be taking 5 steps. The fourth step MAY be your left foot but you won't be taking 5 (since you've already said that you'd be stopped by then).
This means that on the play you're describing, if you were playing right foot pivot, you would have stopped in three.
Again, go out and prove it to yourself. Go play right foot pivot for a day and find out.
Frank Huguenard 31 July 2008 22:00:40 [ permanent link ]
Lambaste?
Hell no.
You've made the best point of all which is that the rules to word the two things as two separate acts and therefore open to all kinds of interpretation.
All I can say is that next time you watch/play, pay attention to this little detail or even better, like I suggested to someone else, attempt to switch altogether and play with a right foot pivot. You'll find that on some plays, you could stop in one step fewer than you would have if you were playing left foot pivot.
<jeremy.mcnamara@gmail.com> wrote in message news:cb90f697-5c9f-456e-b32b-4c2610f4a064@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Hypothetically, just to help visualize this, let's just say you're limited
to three steps for traveling. OK?
I understand that 3 steps is commonly accepted as the limit to slow down, but in reality doesn't it just require a receiver to "come to a stop as quickly as possible and establish a pivot"? Completely ignoring the lack of a step requirement in that rule, it seems to me that stopping and establishing a pivot could be construed as separate actions since they are worded separately. Also, since rarely if ever would anyone "stop" on one foot, a player generally wouldn't be considered to be stopped unless they have both feet down and the action of placing the second foot down can't be a step. Furthermore, from a stopped position, establishing a pivot by moving the non-pivot foot shouldn't be a step either.
Frank Huguenard 31 July 2008 22:10:48 [ permanent link ]
besides the fact that I have, I've watched plenty (as people from CalStates and LaborDay over the past few years can attest).
I've watched hundreds of traveling violations that go uncalled.
"Fish" <UltimateFish@gmail.com> wrote in message news:aff22530-8673-479b-b51b-288d0af7d09b@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com... On Jul 31, 11:23 am, "Frank Huguenard" <fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I see this happen pretty frequently, and like Frank, I just call the
travel. I think it gets called most of the time at higher levels of
the sport.
Travels rarely get called at the higher levels of the game.
you clearly have not played at the higher levels of the game.
Frank Huguenard 1 August 2008 00:54:11 [ permanent link ]
I just got back from playing lunch time ulty.
Another good use of a right foot pivot is throwing hammers. Definitely more power and length throwing a hammer off your right foot.
Also, being ambi, bringing the disc in on the left side of the field it's an advantage to be able to plant the right foot and use all that O.B. space to pivot but that doesn't really count since most people don't have a left flick.
"jacob" <jacobsider@gmail.com> wrote in message news:8b6d007c-abeb-499d-b0ab-1a4b14376c38@a21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
"there are plenty of advantages to planting your right foot if you're
Frank Huguenard 1 August 2008 21:42:57 [ permanent link ]
Wait, are you telling me that apart from the 11 edition rules proper, there is also an SRC interpretation of the rules that players are also supposed to be playing by? Where are these interpretations printed up? And to suggest that I"ve read these findings and am knowingly and intentionally violating both the spirit the letter by which these interpretations were written by (i.e. cheating) is ridiculous.
This is just getting more insane than ever. Players who were supposed to be afforded the ability to interpret the rules now can be overruled by a committee of incompetent ultimate players.
I've got an idea. How about a set of rules based on conventional sports wisdom and referees. Not some New Games crap and interpretation by a committee of boobs.
"Jed" <jedhenley@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ab3161f0-3711-435b-93d2-f5432d9dd033@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com... On Jul 31, 2:16 pm, "Frank Huguenard" <fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Seeing as how the entire Ultimate Nation adheres to this same entitlement
and that standards are nothing more than collective interpretations,
making
calls that even the Observers wouldn't call means that correct calls will
routinely be overturned.
...
I will call this travel violation early and often and I just can't wait
for
some incompetent observer to overrule me.
Your interpretation is wrong Frank, pure and simple.
Calling a travel on a play that is not a travel, as defined by the SRC's interpretation of the 11th edition rules, is cheating. A standard that is different, even if it's higher, is wrong; no less so than a lower standard.
Your childish plan is to cheat, get called on it, throw a tantrum.... does it go any further?
Get ejected? Disrupt the tournament? Assault someone? Get the cops involved? Take a hostage? How far ahead have you thought this through?
Frank Huguenard 2 August 2008 00:35:15 [ permanent link ]
"T1000" <atanarjuat@gmail.com> wrote in message news:240c104c-b94f-4289-b015-47732d8777f2@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Well, you've certainly communicated your disdain for consensus,
Frank. Not just the consensus, mind you, but remarkably for the
notion of consensus, itself. This seems to be emotionally charged for
you, so I won't discuss it further. But I'll comment on your proposed
rules change.
I have disdain for the New Games influence on Ultimate frisbee and therefore, any consensus derived from a demographic of people who've systematically set an abiguous and mediocre standard.
I have disdain the the 11th edition of the rules (as well as the tenth) which have not furthered the game but have only set it backwards.
"I've got an idea. How
about 3 steps. Period."
The trouble is that a 3-step rule ignores all the other fashions with
which players move. It implies that sliding constitutes a travel or
that laying out constitutes a travel. It also broadens the freedom of
players to take liberal advantage of their three steps. Three steps
may be interpreted as three considerable leaps. They could also be
craftily used by a player who takes a giant step, pauses, and then
takes two more past his mark, without establishing a pivot.
Just play dischoops and find out that this rule works fine. People who lay out must keep at least one knee on the ground to throw.
Perhaps you think this is the way the game should be played, Frank, in
all these respects. Okay. But the majority of players thus far
prefer to be able to lay out, and we prefer to prohibit triple-jumping
with the disc. As long as that is the consensus, the rules are going
to be written in a way to express that. I regret that the SRC has not
yet come up with an unambiguous phrasing, but I don't envy them the
Frank Huguenard 2 August 2008 00:56:10 [ permanent link ]
Consensus is that a right handed thrower should use their left foot as a pivot.
This was exactly my point.
By consensus, a receiver taking that extra step to get to his left foot wouldn't be considered traveling by the same referees (players) who also are part of that consensus. Nor would the bonus step he takes after that.
Where's the room for independent thinking when everything is done by consensus?
The majority never leads, they only follow.
"T1000" <atanarjuat@gmail.com> wrote in message news:240c104c-b94f-4289-b015-47732d8777f2@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Well, you've certainly communicated your disdain for consensus,
Frank. Not just the consensus, mind you, but remarkably for the
notion of consensus, itself. This seems to be emotionally charged for
you, so I won't discuss it further. But I'll comment on your proposed
rules change.
"I've got an idea. How
about 3 steps. Period."
The trouble is that a 3-step rule ignores all the other fashions with
which players move. It implies that sliding constitutes a travel or
that laying out constitutes a travel. It also broadens the freedom of
players to take liberal advantage of their three steps. Three steps
may be interpreted as three considerable leaps. They could also be
craftily used by a player who takes a giant step, pauses, and then
takes two more past his mark, without establishing a pivot.
Perhaps you think this is the way the game should be played, Frank, in
all these respects. Okay. But the majority of players thus far
prefer to be able to lay out, and we prefer to prohibit triple-jumping
with the disc. As long as that is the consensus, the rules are going
to be written in a way to express that. I regret that the SRC has not
yet come up with an unambiguous phrasing, but I don't envy them the
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