Re: What do you want from the UPA's Board of Directors?
Frank Huguenard 3 October 2007 20:19:11
Yes, I've got a suggestion.
There is a critical rule change that needs to be implemented.
In the preface, it says basically (paraphrasing) that since no one is going to intentionally violate any rules, there will NOT be any harsh penalties and that play should continue as if the infraction had not occured. I'm assuming that a turnover is considered a harsh violation since the majority of players have indicated that for either uncontested traveling violations or uncontested offensive fouls, a turnover is considered to be too harsh.
Therefore, my suggestion is that when a team gets called for a stall count violation, they should get a do-over. When a players gets called with a STALL, all play should stop, the thrower should get the disc back with a fresh zero count and the disc checked back in.
So some real leadership here Josh and right the ship. Step up to the plate and fix this once and for all. Ultimate can NOT survive with this glaring hole of inconsistency in the framework of the game.
Either there are going to be harsh penalties or there are not.
"Josh" <jseamon@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1191421481.950393.268800@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Hello everyone,
I've decided to go for it and run for an at large position on the
UPA's Board of Directors.
Voting is now open and will be through the end of October. Anyone who
is a UPA member can vote. You don't have to be 18 to vote.
Over the next month I will be attempting to engage as many people in
the US Ultimate community as I can on the topic of what they would
like to see the UPA's Board of Directors do for them. I am
particularly interested in:
What are you looking for in a Board member?
How can the UPA better serve the US Ultimate community?
Would you like to hear my position on any issues in particular?
....anything and everything you'd like to say about the UPA.
I've put up a page detailing all of the information that's currently
Frank Huguenard 3 October 2007 22:38:49 [ permanent link ]
Adam,
Thank you for that. Exactly the kind of nonsense I was hoping for. Throwing the disc out of bounds is no different from turfing a disc. It's not a rules violation, it's how the game is played.
By who's definition is holding on to the disc for ten seconds not a violation? What would you call it if it's not a violation of the rules?
In the NBA, it's called a "shot clock violation" when you don't put up a shot that hits iron in less than 24 seconds. In other words, it's a violation of the rules, in the shot clock category.
In ultimate, it's a "stall count violation" to hold on to the disc for ten seconds. The Penalty for a stall count violation is a turnover. If you had refs and official score cards and a "throw clock", a stall would be scored as a clock violation.
But you go ahead, redefine the meaning of the word violation to reconcile the preface so that the rules seem rational to you.
Rather than accept the fact that the foundation for Ultimate (no harsh penalties) is not only insane but not even consistentenly adhered to in the rules, redefine the meaning of violation to suit your needs.
I'll have a pint of cognitive dissonance to go, with a wedge of lime.
"Adam Tarr" <ahtarrNOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1191438853.501417.289670@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
A stall is not a violation of the rules, just like catching the disc
out of bounds is not a violation of the rules.
On Oct 3, 11:19 am, "Frank Huguenard"
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Yes, I've got a suggestion.
There is a critical rule change that needs to be implemented.
In the preface, it says basically (paraphrasing) that since no one is
going
to intentionally violate any rules, there will NOT be any harsh penalties
and that play should continue as if the infraction had not occured. I'm
assuming that a turnover is considered a harsh violation since the
majority
of players have indicated that for either uncontested traveling
violations
or uncontested offensive fouls, a turnover is considered to be too harsh.
Therefore, my suggestion is that when a team gets called for a stall
count
violation, they should get a do-over. When a players gets called with a
STALL, all play should stop, the thrower should get the disc back with a
fresh zero count and the disc checked back in.
So some real leadership here Josh and right the ship. Step up to the
plate
and fix this once and for all. Ultimate can NOT survive with this
glaring
hole of inconsistency in the framework of the game.
Either there are going to be harsh penalties or there are not.
Frank Huguenard 4 October 2007 02:30:28 [ permanent link ]
Frank:
I actually don't follow you on your first post. Could you explain
again what you mean?
Josh,
Ultimate's rules begin with this: __________________________
Preface
The Official Rules of Ultimate 11th Edition describes how the game is played. It is assumed that no player will
intentionally violate the rules; thus there are no harsh penalties for inadvertent infractions, but rather a method
for resuming play in a manner that simulates what most likely would have occurred absent the infraction. In
Ultimate, an intentional infraction is considered cheating and a gross offense against the spirit of sportsmanship.
Often a player is in a position to gain an advantage by committing an infraction, but that player is morally
bound to abide by the rules. The integrity of Ultimate depends on each player's responsibility to uphold the
Spirit of the GameT, and this responsibility should remain paramount.
___________________________
Basically what this paragraph says is that the reason for penalization in sports is to prevent cheating. Read it again. That's what it implies. This basic wording has been in the rules since the inception of the UPA 28 years ago.
This is insane.
Not only is it insane, but by having a turnover for a stall count violation (an inadvertant infraction), it's not even held true. My suggestion was that in order for the rules to hold to this preface and be consistent, you need to remove the harsh penalty (turnover) for the infraction. [it has already been determined by the majority that a mandatory turnover is considered a harsh penalty]
I'm not being sarcastic or fecitious. Either there are harsh penalties or there are not. You can't have it both ways. Since nobody wants to have a turnover for traveling or fouls, then the only choice is to have a do-over for stall count infractions.
Of course, the other way to FIX this glaring descrepency in the rules is to a) remove the preface or b) declare that a mandatory turnover is not a harsh penalty and instill this not-so-harsh penalty for uncontested offensive fouls, uncontested traveling violations, etc.
Option (b) falls short of the ideal because it lacks the mechanism for a player fouling out after x number of fouls. Definitely a harsh penalty.
Anything short of that and the rules for Ultimate remain a joke.
The reason for penalties in sports is not to prevent cheating, it is to assure adherance to the rules. There is a big difference here. It's just human nature. People will try a lot harder to not commit an infraction, inadvertant or not, if there are negative consequences associated with it. In effect, what the preface has encouraged, is decreased awareness. Harsh penalties increase awareness. Increased awareness leads to higher quality of play.
All these people want respect for Ultimate, major sponsorships, TV coverage, legitimacy and you can do all the dressing up you want of the players but until the preface from Ultimate gets thrown out and the rules then get rationalized, the game is not to be taken seriously. On the film clip http://www.break.com/index/ultimate-frisbee-collision.html, forgetting for a second the actual clip, read through the ensuing threads. That's what the general public thinks of Ultimate Frisbee. Are you going to change that? Or are you going to 'do the same thing your competitor has done'?
Creating a bigger sectionals idea is the best idea I have seen on here in a long time.
Sectionals is where the most potential for promotion lies because it is more likely to draw non-ultimate players across the country at each local event.
Also, people who join the UPA and play at Sectionals deserve to feel that they are doing something that carries some significance.
Tim
"Joe Seidler" <joe@seidler.com> wrote in message news:1191456553.581730.142030@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
How about at Sectionals:
1. Larger tents with more food and merchandise for sale (similar to
Regionals and Nationals).
2. Marked fields like at NW Regionals (that was great).
3. Saturday night party.
4. Raffles to add some fun.
5. Water, etc. available like at Regionals.
And at Regionals, have bigger tents still with more food and
merchandise. More raffles. Big Saturday night party. It would also be
nice if UPA board members walked around Regional tournaments talking
and listening to the players. (Note: the next statement is a pet peeve
of mine.) When board members are current players and they are playing
in Regionals and Nationals and cannot communicate with members at
those events, it is a tremendously missed opportunity. IMO board
members should be aware and ready to put their board duties ahead of
their playing desires. This of course would mean thinking about that
before they run for the board... end of my soap box.
Getting sponsors may be difficult. Ultimate doesn't attract many
sponsors since players don't need to buy too much from vendors. That's
why I suggest using more of the UPA budget. Spend it on Sectionals
which is the only place all UPA members participate.
On Oct 3, 3:47 pm, Josh <jsea...@gmail.com> wrote:
Joe:
Putting more money into Sectionals and Regionals is a wonderful idea,
especially for the reason you listed. How do you think that money
should be applied? I like Toad's idea of having info tents. I wonder
Frank Huguenard 4 October 2007 22:21:02 [ permanent link ]
As i'v always said....referee is easy as 1(knowledge
of the rules), 2 (good judgement),3 (proper field mechanics)
Todd, there is something missing in this (although it does require good judgment).
A large part of a referee's job, especially in a game like basketball, is to meter the way the game is played.
For instance, in making traveling calls, a referee will take into account the amount of effort a given player makes in adhering to the rules. Player A who obviously plays hard to never travel may catch a break whereas player B who constantly demonstrates carelessness will get called more often.
A ref also sets the bar on where the fouls are and can control the physicallity of a given game in real time.
These two things are examples of an aspect in reffing that self refereeing can't possibly do.
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