These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded. Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is Barnett's really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home mechanic who wants to be as DIY as possible)?
These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded.>Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is Barnett's>really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home mechanic>who wants to be as DIY as possible)?
Hey, hey, hey . . .
Don't forget Sutherland's and the new Park Tool book:
Velo Psycho wrote:> These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded.> Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is> Barnett's really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home> mechanic who wants to be as DIY as possible)? Don't limit yourself to just one. There is no such thing as too much information.
The Zinn, Haynes and Park books are aimed towards the home guys, while Sutherlands and Barnetts are aimed towards the pro mechanics and can often be too technical.
Of all of them I have the Park and Haynes books. They tell me virtually everything I need to know. Some stuff on bikes is done so seldom, or require special costly tools, that I have my LBS do those jobs.
"Velo Psycho" <mjralias-google@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1110303770.682605.189260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded.> Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is Barnett's> really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home mechanic> who wants to be as DIY as possible)?
If we're talking about Mountain Bikes here most of these books are out of date within 3 years so I wouldn't spend a lot on an older book. Visit a library or use online resources.
On 8 Mar 2005 09:42:50 -0800, "Velo Psycho" <mjralias-google@yahoo.com> wrote:
These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded.>Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is Barnett's>really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home mechanic>who wants to be as DIY as possible)?
Depends on your level of expertise and DIYishness.
Barnetts is the badass technical ref.
Zinn is like what you see on the Park website with more explanation and better illustrations. Good for beginners through intermediate stuff.
And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the shelves of a used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes the Barnett's look like bathroom reading material. Loads of spec's, compatibility charts, tables, instructions on rebuilding internal hubs, etc. It looked to me like either a shop asset or one for a *serious* DIY'er who works on lots of types of bikes. This particular one, though, was way too old to mean anything to me.
I was lucky enough to download a Barnett's back when you could. I find it less esoteric than the Sutherlands that I saw--more usable. I really should take the time to just print the whole thing out and stuff it in a loose-leaf binder but I haven't.
Meanwhile, I just ordered the Park BBB online for $21, delivered. I've had enough luck with their online instructions to throw a couple of sawbucks at it.
Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:>>Barnetts is the badass technical ref. >
And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the shelves of a> used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes the> Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.
Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with essentially no tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for beginners (and much cheaper, too).
Velo Psycho wrote:> These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded.> Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is Barnett's> really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home mechanic> who wants to be as DIY as possible)?> No opinion on Barnett ( I've only seen a few excerpts) but clearly Zinn over Haynes.
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo 9 March 2005 18:17:34 [ permanent link ]
Velo Psycho wrote:> These repair / tech manuals seem to be the most highly regarded.> Anyone have an opinion as to the relative merits of each? Is Barnett's> really worth 8 times the price of the other two (for a home mechanic> who wants to be as DIY as possible)?>
"Ken" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message news:Xns9613B329F29A4x12@216.251.47.166...> Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in> news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:> >>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.> >
And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the
shelves of a> > used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes
Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.>
Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with
essentially no> tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for beginners (and> much cheaper, too).
Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc. It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a how-to book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see the chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay Beattie.
Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair>manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such>as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.>It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and>SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the>only way you could determine spoke length.
Now that you mention it--and on another review of their website--I think you're exactly right, and I don't think that's changed. It's basically an exhaustive collection of manufacturers' data.
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message news:4j5v21ldue0qb2hncat5r5hqnf5sarnp5q@4ax.com...> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:55:03 -0800, "Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com>> wrote:>
"Ken" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message> >news:Xns9613B329F29A4x12@216.251.47.166...> >> Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in> >> news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:> >> >>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.> >> >
And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the> >shelves of a> >> > used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's
Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with> >essentially no> >> tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better
beginners (and> >> much cheaper, too).> >
Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a
repair> >manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such> >as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.> >It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet
SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the> >only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a
how-to> >book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see
chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that> >qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay
Beattie.>
Barnett's web site has PDF'd chapters available as samples.
Hey, why sell it when you can give it away! If your are persistent, can you get all of the chapters? -- Jay Beattie.
Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in>>>news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:>>>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.>>>And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the>>>shelves of a>>>used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes>>>the>>>Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.
"Ken" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message>> news:Xns9613B329F29A4x12@216.251.47.166...>>Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with>> essentially no>>tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for>> beginners (and>>much cheaper, too).
Jay Beattie wrote:> Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair> manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such> as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.> It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and> SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the> only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a how-to> book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see the> chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that> qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay Beattie.
Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in>>>>news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:>>>>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.>>>>And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the>>>>shelves of a>>>>used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes>>>>the>>>>Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.>
"Ken" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message>>> news:Xns9613B329F29A4x12@216.251.47.166...>>>Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with>>> essentially no>>>tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for>>> beginners (and>>>much cheaper, too).>
Jay Beattie wrote:>> Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair>> manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such>> as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.>> It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and>> SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the>> only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a how-to>> book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see the>> chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that>> qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay Beattie.>
Bear in mind, Andy, that--at least in the past, and IIRC--Barnett's used to rotate which chapters could be downloaded from their site. A watchful and patient person could acquire the entire book for free in substantially less time than is required to make, say, a pearl, a diamond, or a blue dwarf.
Based on this, I'm not sure their stance has been as aggressive as one might think. Enough to shut down the full download from BikeForums.net, but not necessarily going after terminally patient one-offs.
Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in>>>>>news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:>>>>>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.>>>>>And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the>>>>>shelves of a>>>>>used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's makes>>>>>the>>>>>Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.>>
"Ken" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message>>>> news:Xns9613B329F29A4x12@216.251.47.166...>>>>Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with>>>> essentially no>>>>tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better for>>>> beginners (and>>>>much cheaper, too).>>
Jay Beattie wrote:>>> Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a repair>>> manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications such>>> as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension, etc.>>> It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet and>>> SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the>>> only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a how-to>>> book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see the>>> chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that>>> qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay Beattie.>>
Bear in mind, Andy, that--at least in the past, and IIRC--Barnett's>used to rotate which chapters could be downloaded from their site. A>watchful and patient person could acquire the entire book for free in>substantially less time than is required to make, say, a pearl, a>diamond, or a blue dwarf.>
Based on this, I'm not sure their stance has been as aggressive as one>might think. Enough to shut down the full download from>BikeForums.net, but not necessarily going after terminally patient>one-offs.
A bit more info: I just received an e-mail back from one of the hosts of one of the bike forum websites that *did* put the entire book online once upon a time--in response to my question about John Barnett's request that people cease making the entire manual available gratis. Quoting:
"Neil, the request was very cordial, IIRC, he asked two or three other sites to remove the book, all the sites had each and every chapter avalible for download. If you look hard, you can find all the chapters still floating around."
I *do* get the feeling this wasn't a particular hot button for John.
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:18:19 -0800, "Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message>news:4j5v21ldue0qb2hncat5r5hqnf5sarnp5q@4ax.com...>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:55:03 -0800, "Jay Beattie"><jbeattie@lindsayhart.com>>> wrote:>>
"Ken" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote in message>> >news:Xns9613B329F29A4x12@216.251.47.166...>> >> Neil Brooks <Neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in>> >> news:d6js211hbanv9ljg7jo01t5tiqgnvncal2@4ax.com:>> >> >>Barnetts is the badass technical ref.>> >> >
And really--from the perusal of the one copy I saw on the>> >shelves of a>> >> > used bookstore in Durango, Colorado--the Sutherland's>makes>> >the>> >> > Barnett's look like bathroom reading material.>> >>
Both Barnett's and Sutherlands are pro level manuals with>> >essentially no>> >> tutorials for beginners. Haynes and Zinn are much better>for>> >beginners (and>> >> much cheaper, too).>> >
Unless Sutherlands has changed format lately, it is not a>repair>> >manual at all. It is a source for technical specifications>such>> >as ERD, flange diameters, bearing size, headset dimension,>etc.>> >It is not a "how to" manual. Before the age of the internet>and>> >SpokeCalc (or an HP calculator and a good formula), it was the>> >only way you could determine spoke length. Barnets is a>how-to>> >book, albeit geared towards the professional mechanic. I see>the>> >chapters posted here from time to time and wonder how that>> >qualifies as "fair use" under the copyright laws. -- Jay>Beattie.>>
Barnett's web site has PDF'd chapters available as samples.>
Hey, why sell it when you can give it away! If your are>persistent, can you get all of the chapters? -- Jay Beattie.
I think not. After all Barnett's is not in the recording industry so doesn't make it easier to steal their product than buy it.
