1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front> hub. Adjust stem length as necessary.
Commonly given advice, but wrong. As with many of these "rules," it _sometimes_ works out right. But different head tube angles or fork offsets will skew the results.
The correct process is to adjust stem height and extension until the rider feels comfortable.
2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be> directly over the pedal spindle.
I never heard that one. Sounds like a variation of KOPS.
3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose> should be over the knee or something
Ah, that's KOPS: Knee Over Pedal Spindle. It's a good starting point. Try it and experiment with slight variations to see what feels right.
Next issue - cleats. Mine were way out towards the outside,> pointing my toes in and making my inner ankle tendons hurt like> crazy! I moved mine back inwards, then pointing my toes more out, >
and I feel much better.
Set the angle to whatever direction your feet normally point. As far as fore/aft, set the cleat so the ball of the foot is either directly over the pedal spindle, or _slightly_ forward of the spindle (never aft).
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo 7 March 2005 18:14:37 [ permanent link ]
Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:> Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert > on road bike fitting.>
Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:> 1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust > stem length as necessary> 2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over > the pedal spindle.> 3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be > over the knee or something>
Does anyone disagree or have more input?>
We use a plumb line at work, but I always hand off the bike fit issues to my > coworkers.>
Long rides on my road bike have really plain *hurt* from a variety of > sources. I switched out my Specialized Body Geometry saddle for a slightly > lighter Vetta Trishock or something a few months ago. Fine for around > town, but after 10 minutes on the saddle, it hurts... 30 miles simply kills, > and I'm sore for a few days after. Switching out the saddle back to the > Spec BG initially hurt because it was so firm, but the support was perfectly > on the sit bones, ergo, happy hiney.>
Next issue - cleats. Mine were way out towards the outside, pointing my > toes in and making my inner ankle tendons hurt like crazy! I moved mine > back inwards, then pointing my toes more out, and I feel much better.>
Next issue - uneven pain. I think my right leg is shorter than the left. > I'm not sure by exactly how much, but my right ankle was hurting more than > my left. It could just be that that foot was angled in more than the > left... need to take a long ride to be sure.>
Next (and final, unsolved issue) - stem length and ultimately frame size. I > ride an old-school 50cm GT Edge. I have a 31in inseam, and I'm 5'5" tall. > I started out with a 100mm stem. Bleah! Cut it down to a Dimension 60mm... > it still feels too long. Thomson used to make a silver 50mm road stem... > now only they and one other manufacturer make 50mm road stems, both black. > I'd like to keep the silver if possible... the bike is polished alu. I ride > a short stem on my MTB and love it... I like the more direct steering aspect > of short stems. Does anyone think that my frame might still be too large, > and I'm compensating the wrong way? BTW, if it helps, my preferred XC MTB > size is 16-17">
We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but things like -in drops, hbar covers front axle -leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal -elbow on nose of saddle, arm outstretched, fingers should be 1/2 of the stem-type stuff.
Saddles are tough. Even if ya sit on them properly, they may still be uncomfortable. If you saddle is too high, ya may be rocking, casuing chaffing, causing sorness.
Zog The Undeniable 7 March 2005 22:36:38 [ permanent link ]
Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:> Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert > on road bike fitting.>
Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:> 1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust > stem length as necessary
I use another old one instead; place your elbow on the nose of the saddle and the bars should be an inch or two beyond the tip of your middle finger.
2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over > the pedal spindle.
Never heard this.
3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be > over the knee or something
Normally the centre of the knee joint, or the kneecap (depends who you talk to) should be over the pedal spindle. It's a good rule of thumb for saddle setback, but not that critical really. Look at recumbents!
Assuming the frame has reasonably proportional geometry, top tube length should be your starting point.
I use another old one instead; place your elbow on the nose of the> saddle and the bars should be an inch or two beyond the tip of your> middle finger.
Hmm. Peter wrote something similar earlier. When I do that my fingers barely cover the stem cap, leaving the full length of the stem (2.5~3"?) to the bar. I have my saddle set pretty far back, but I don't feel at all too stretched out or anything; think I'll leave things be!
(Just checked both of my mountain bikes, and they're about the same -- fingers /barely/ reach the top cap.)
I also tried the "can't see the front hub" thing -- just sitting on the (road) bike and not riding it -- and indeed the line of sight is blocked, but by the brake calipers and not the stem/bar junction. Hub is almost exactly half-way under the stem in line-of-sight terms.
Maybe I have short forearms? My torso isn't disproportionately long, that's for sure...
Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles 8 March 2005 01:16:46 [ permanent link ]
Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:> 1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. > Adjust stem length as necessary
Almost sorta kinda, but that means that your position on the bike would be different if you had a 73 degree headtube (with attendant shorter fork offset) vs a 72 degree headtube (with a longer corresponding offset for neutral handling). That obviously makes very little sense.
Something else to consider is that most such "rules" came to be long before we had STI shifting, and I daresay the "normal" position we ride in has changed considerably from when we had downtube shifters. At all times keep in mind that the rider shouldn't be too stretched out when on the hoods, since that's a position they're going to spend a lot of time in.
Another thing to think about is that most riders benefit from a shorter forward reach on the bars. Back in the day, you had an aggressive position on the hoods, and a relaxed position on the flats. But now, if you set something up aggressive for the hoods you're likely in trouble, because that's where people are going to spend a lot of their time (since you do the shifting from there).
2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly > over the pedal spindle.
That's a new one. Don't know where it comes from; might be approximately correct, but are you looking at that for cleat placement or seat height?
3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be > over the knee or something
A bit better is to have the crank roughly lined up with the downtube, and look for a 90 degree inside bend to the knee. This is a good cross-check for seat height (the other being the classic slight bend when the pedal's at the bottom and heel flat, which is pretty much the old 109% of inseam).
But these are all static measurements, and you really need to observe what someone looks like when actually riding. In particular, pay attention to their back. If it's got a large arch in it, that's an indication that classic riding position just isn't going to work and you need to bring them back a bit. Some people use trainers, but I much prefer watching someone ride in real life, even if just in a parking lot. People tend to "perform" on a trainer, and try to figure out what you're looking for and assume that position. Out on the road, they relax in short order and you see things that otherwise wouldn't show up.
--Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member
We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said the > one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards first > published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but things like> ...> -leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...
This even works on a recumbent! ;)
Saddles are tough. Even if ya sit on them properly, they may still be > uncomfortable. If you saddle is too high, ya may be rocking, casuing > chaffing, causing sorness.
I find an inch thick "Sunfoam" pad on a sling mesh seat reclined at 38 degrees from the horizontal works wonders. Better than any car seat or office chair I have ever sat on. ;)
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:56:10 GMT, "Phil, Squid-in-Training" <phil_leeIHEARTBASHGUARDS@hotmail.com> wrote:
Next (and final, unsolved issue) - stem length and ultimately frame size. I >ride an old-school 50cm GT Edge. I have a 31in inseam, and I'm 5'5" tall. >I started out with a 100mm stem. Bleah! Cut it down to a Dimension 60mm... >it still feels too long.
From what you say, it seem that you ride your bicycle in a more upright position. The goal is to reach for the bars by rocking your hips forward instead of bending over as if you were going to touch your toes. After a bicycle fitting where I was told to do that, I went from a 90 mm to 120 mm stem. It took more than a year to get there. Less pressure on my butt, more shock absorbtion in my arms and legs. My bars are about 3" below my seat.
My wife, whose measurements are similar to yours, rides a 50 cm x 50 cm toptube bicycle with a 12 cm stem. Four years ago when she started, she was using a 8 cm stem.
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:56:10 GMT, "Phil, Squid-in-Training" <phil_leeIHEARTBASHGUARDS@hotmail.com> wrote:
Even as a cycle shop employee, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert >on road bike fitting.>
Here are some rough rules I've received over the years:>1. Riding on the hoods, one should not be able to see the front hub. Adjust >stem length as necessary>2. When a leg is at the 6 o clock position, the knee should be directly over >the pedal spindle.>3. When a leg is at the 3 o clock position, the tip of the nose should be >over the knee or something>
Does anyone disagree or have more input?
I have a "Bike Fit" folder in my browser's bookmark file that I've built up over many years. After not looking at it in some time I checked it this morning and found that most of the pages/sites have disappeared. These are the ones that are still valid.
Also, I understand Rivendell has a revisionist fit article, but it's not on their web site. They claim " We have too much to say about fit and sizing to include it all here (see our print catalogue or elsewhere online)." A google search hasn't turned up the article. Anyone?
Also, I understand Rivendell has a revisionist fit article, but> it's not on their web site. They claim " We have too much to say> about fit and sizing to include it all here (see our print> catalogue or elsewhere online)." A google search hasn't turned up >
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo 10 March 2005 18:11:41 [ permanent link ]
Tom Sherman wrote:> Peter Chisholm wrote:>
We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said >> the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards >> first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but >> things like>> ...>> -leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...>
This even works on a recumbent! ;)>
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair with wheels.
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo wrote:> Tom Sherman wrote:>
Peter Chisholm wrote:>>
We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said >>> the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards >>> first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but >>> things like>>> ...>>> -leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...>>
This even works on a recumbent! ;)>>
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to > buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair > with wheels.
Peter, it's imperative to get a proper fitting when selecting a recumbent. How will you know that your Big Gulp will fit easily in the bottle cages if you don't test it beforehand?
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo wrote:> Tom Sherman wrote:>
Peter Chisholm wrote:>>
We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said >>> the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards >>> first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but >>> things like>>> ...>>> -leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...>>
This even works on a recumbent! ;)>>
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to > buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair > with wheels.
Peter, it's imperative to get a proper fitting when selecting a recumbent. How will you know that your Big Gulp will fit easily in the bottle cages if you don't test it beforehand?
We just had Andy Pruitt i for a fit 'rehash and update' and he said >>> the one of the best sources on fit is still the Italian standards >>> first published about 30 years ago. NONE are etched in stone but >>> things like>>> ...>>> -leg should be straight when placing heel onto pedal...>>
This even works on a recumbent! ;)>>
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart to > buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn chair > with wheels.
Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed.
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo 12 March 2005 18:35:49 [ permanent link ]
Tom Sherman wrote:
This even works on a recumbent! ;)>>>
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>>>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart >> to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn >> chair with wheels.>
Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to > pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. >
'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent answers no question, solves no problems.
BUT adds many, as have been talked about before. If ya like yer 'bent, groovy but it shouldn't be painted as some sort of panacea for the 'dreaded problems of uprights'.
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:35:49 -0700, Qui Si Parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com> wrote:
'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed >upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent >answers no question, solves no problems.
Lord knows I'm not an apologist for recumbents (although I must admit I did once ride one around a parking lot), but one problem 'bents solve is aerodynamic drag.
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>>>>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart >>> to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn >>> chair with wheels.>>
Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to >> pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. >>
'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed > upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent > answers no question, solves no problems.
It is great fun living in a flat windy area, passing better conditioned riders with ease. ;)
Recumbents are also great for annoying conformist upright riders who believe that everyone that does not ride the proper bike, wear the proper clothes, etc. should get off the road [1]. These people are often less tolerant than the worst religious fanatics.
BUT adds many, as have been talked about before. If ya like yer 'bent, > groovy but it shouldn't be painted as some sort of panacea for the > 'dreaded problems of uprights'.
Then why is there so much talk about comfort problems, and why is fit such a complicated issue on an upright bicycle?
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:32:59 -0600, Tom Sherman <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote:
Peter Chisholm wrote:>
Tom Sherman wrote:>>
This even works on a recumbent! ;)>>>>>
[Note: Recumbent content purely for Mr. Chisholm's enjoyment ;)]>>>>>
Ya know, I never saw the need to get a bike fit when I went to Kmart >>>> to buy lawn chairs...not sure why you would need a fit for a lawn >>>> chair with wheels.>>>
Properly designed recumbents are easy to set up - get the seat to >>> pedal/BB distance set correctly, and comfort is guaranteed. >>>
'properly designed 'bent'. Almost an oxymoron. For a well designed >> upright, fit well, for a rider w/o any physiological problems, a 'bent >> answers no question, solves no problems.>
It is great fun living in a flat windy area, passing better conditioned >riders with ease. ;)
I've got two words for you, well sort of a compound anyway: Cyclo-Cross!
