I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great for friction shifting.
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
go ahead and do it you will be fine, just watch for overshifts!
Paul Kopit wrote:> I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using> downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had> problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was> wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the> distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great> for friction shifting.>
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I> already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not> planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
I tried friction shifting Campy 9 speed, but found it infuriatingly difficult. I was using Shimano Ultegra DT shifters.
You can make Campy downtube levers. Just buy their "barend" levers and a kit with the extra bits that you need to mount them on the downtube. I think Le Tour do the kit.
I've got nice Campy 9 speed indexed downtube levers, which work a treat, and are ultra-reliable. One of these days I'll buy the indexing ring to go to 10 speed.
"Paul Kopit" <p.kopitREMOVE@SPAMverizon.net> wrote in message news:lbfc21hb3pptuakte5s1foaq8vu16l8f12@4ax.com...>I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using> downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had> problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was> wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the> distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great> for friction shifting.>
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I> already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not> planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.
Please let us know how it goes. I'm interested in doing the same, but would love to hear your experience.
Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY
"Paul Kopit" <p.kopitREMOVE@SPAMverizon.net> wrote in message news:lbfc21hb3pptuakte5s1foaq8vu16l8f12@4ax.com...> I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using> downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had> problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was> wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the> distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great> for friction shifting.>
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I> already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not> planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
Paul Kopit wrote:> I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using> downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had> problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was> wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the> distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great> for friction shifting.>
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I> already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not> planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
Some riders note that it's a finer adjustment between cogs. Not a big deal IMHO. p.s. not all shifters can span the necessary throw for Ten.
begin quoting rsquared <rodrig462@yahoo.com>:>These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction >because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The >cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.
That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems. -- David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field! Today is Mania, March.
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
begin quoting rsquared <rodrig462@yahoo.com>:>>These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction >>because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The >>cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.>
That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.
A tandem has essentially the same shifting system cable friction as a half bike - my TT bike OTOH, has a lot more cable housing than either of my tandems, and doesn't shift as well as a result (not "bad", just not "as well").
Qui Si Parla Campagnolo 3 March 2005 18:11:06 [ permanent link ]
Paul Kopit wrote:> I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using> downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had> problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was> wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the> distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great> for friction shifting.>
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I> already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not> planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
Why not get a old style freewheel hub and use a freewheel??
!0s and frction is tough since everything is so close together.
Yes, you>>do have to be fairly precise in your shifts (which is why I'm replacing>>the Campy shifters with Rivendell Silver power-ratchet type models),>
Paul Kopit queried:>
What does a 'power ratchet' do that makes it more precise?
"Power Ratchet" is an advertising buzzword for a Suntour design, that decouples the shift lever from the friction clutch when shifting in the direction that pulls against the derailer's return spring.
With a pure friction lever, the friction has to at least equal the maximum pull of the derailer spring. When these are close, it takes almost no effort to push the lever forward (loosening the cable and the spring,) because the spring is helping you push the lever forward.
However, when you pull backward on the lever, tightening the cable, you are working against both the resistance of the friction clutch in the shift lever _and_ the spring tension.
Tis creates an asymmetry of action between upshifting and downshifting.
With a "Power Rodentfeces" system, the ratchet disengages the friction clutch as you pull the lever backward, so you're only working against the spring. This gives a notably nicer feel to the shifter.
Other brands have solved this problem different ways. Shimano used to use a spring in the shifter that opposed the derailer's spring. This avoided the slightly "granular" feel created by the ratchet.
The legendary Simplex "Retrofriction" levers did somethin similar, not sure how the internal mechanism worked, I think it was a pawl-less ratchet of some sort.
Sheldon "None Of These Sysems Is Nearly As Good As A Modern Indexed System" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------------+ | A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; | | an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. | | -- Sir Winston Churchill | +-----------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.comhttp://sheldonbrown.com
These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction >>because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The >>cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.>
and added:>
That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.
That's even odder, because putting the shifters on aerobars usually results in a less curvaceous run of cable housing from the shift levers to the housing stops on the down tube.
I recommend that whoever the original poster is check out my Cables article:
Sheldon "No Kinks" Brown +------------------------------------------------+ | Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, | | but most of the time he will pick himself up | | and continue on. -- Sir Winston Churchill | +------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.comhttp://sheldonbrown.com
Mea cupla for introducing undefined marketing-speak. Always irritating.
Not "nearly as good?" Well, I guess that depends on the definition of "good." Mine includes being able to easily use a variety of different rear derailleurs and cassettes that I have lying around (and may have lying around in the future). It also encompasses the pleasing silence and feel of friction. And for front derailleurs, indexing is nonsense as far as I'm concerned.
I agree, though, that if you have one bike and one rear wheel set-up, well-adjusted indexing is "good." That's not my situation, though.
begin quoting Sheldon Brown <captbike@sheldonbrown.com>:>David Damerell quoted somebody:>>>These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction >>>because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The >>>cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.>and added:>>That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.>That's even odder, because putting the shifters on aerobars usually >results in a less curvaceous run of cable housing from the shift levers >to the housing stops on the down tube.
Yes, I wondered about that when reading Andrew Muzi's reply; my tandem has bar-end shifters on, which lead the cable in a half-circle, as well as a longer run from the downtube stops with extra housing in.
What is the typical routing on aerobars? -- David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field! Today is Mania, March.
Paul Kopit Wrote: > I am building up a traditional steel frame and I am thinking of using> downtube shifters in friction mode with double cranks. I never had> problems shifting 7sp or 8sp cassettes with friction shifting. I was> wondering if anyone had experince with 10 sp. My concern is the the> distance between cogs is smaller and maybe the precision is too great> for friction shifting.>
If I have to go to indexed shifting, I'll just install the Ergo that I> already have. It's about style and not being practical. I'm not> planning on any gear combinations that won't shift with brifters.
I can get you part way there by saying that my 9 speed shifted fine with friction. That's with old Campy DT shifters on my old steel bike. I just didn't like it so I went to Egro. But, perhaps, it was because of me. My problem is that my hearing has become poor especially in the higher frequencies so I don't get the audible cues required for shifting with friction. It was disconcerting. I'd shift, then stand on the pedals to climb and BANG; I be in another gear. Finally, when I started asking riding buddies if my chain was making noise, I knew it was time for indexing on the old bike.
Sheldon Brown <captbike@sheldonbrown.com> writes:
The legendary Simplex "Retrofriction" levers did somethin similar, not> sure how the internal mechanism worked, I think it was a pawl-less> ratchet of some sort.
A coil spring wound around the post about which the lever turned. Pushing forward on the lever wound the spring tighter, causing its internal diameter to shrink and tighten around the post, increasing the friction. Pulling back did the opposite, reducing the friction. It was the change in friction, rather than the spring force, that gave it its nice feel (at least that's how I recall that it worked). It also pulled less cable than a Record shifter, for the same arc, so it needed a bigger throw. I used this for years; only got indexed (Ergo) 'cause it came with a bike I got from a teammate.
begin quoting rsquared <rodrig462@yahoo.com>:>>These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction >>because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The >>cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.
David Damerell wrote:> That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.
Dave makes a good point. A more rigorous setup should give crisp shifts on a 60 tri bike. There's no inherent reason for it _not_ to shift well.
David Damerell quoted somebody:>>>>These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction >>>>because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The >>>>cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.>>and added:>>>That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.
begin quoting Sheldon Brown <captbike@sheldonbrown.com>:>>That's even odder, because putting the shifters on aerobars usually >>results in a less curvaceous run of cable housing from the shift levers >>to the housing stops on the down tube.
David Damerell wrote:> Yes, I wondered about that when reading Andrew Muzi's reply; my tandem has> bar-end shifters on, which lead the cable in a half-circle, as well as a> longer run from the downtube stops with extra housing in.> What is the typical routing on aerobars?
A relatively straight shot of casing from the front of the aerobar to the downtube stop.
I'm with you guys. The problem here is rigor in cable setup. No magic. Ensure there are no kinked or frayed sections of wire, no damaged casing. Get rid of any plastic ferrules in favor of metal ones. Wipe a light lubricant on the wires where they will pass through casing ( _not_ grease). Ensure the casing runs are smooth ample curves which cannot be pulled tight in the full steering range.
In article <dr2e211cp7sk34d5bdpq38m2orbs4h3vss@4ax.com>, Mark Hickey <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:>
begin quoting rsquared <rodrig462@yahoo.com>:> >>These factors may not pertain to your situation, but... I prefer friction > >>because I have a 60cm frame, with shifters on the ends of aerobars. The > >>cable run is so long that it is difficult to keep indexing precise.> >
That's odd, because indexed shifting works OK on tandems.>
A tandem has essentially the same shifting system cable friction as a> half bike - my TT bike OTOH, has a lot more cable housing than either> of my tandems, and doesn't shift as well as a result (not "bad", just> not "as well").
I get indexed shifting out of a bicycle where the rear cable is fully sheathed from shifter to derailleur. Of course, this is on a BMX frame (which explains why I would do this), and I kept the loops really big.
And in case you're wondering, this is not the finished bike, there is a front brake, and I do have occasional problems with the rear loop touching the spokes. If I rode this bike more or faster, I would be more aggressive about fixing that problem.
Everybody should have a Biopace-equipped 7-speed BMX, -- Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.
