Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me. Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the door. Has anyone had a similar fall ? Richard
"Richard Thompson" <Jollyrodgerjele@webtv.net> wrote in message news:24565-427E93A9-286@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the> door. Has anyone had a> similar fall ? Richard
No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the owner not replacing them when necessary.
I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're in shape for the pros.
"Richard Thompson" <Jollyrodgerjele@webtv.net> wrote in message news:24565-427E93A9-286@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the> door. Has anyone had a> similar fall ? Richard>
@ @
I assume that you broke the cleat climbing and then had your foot disengage on the descent. The only Look cleats that I've seen crack or break are those that are worn and past due for replacement. Was it a genuine Look cleat or an Exus knock off made with softer plastic?
Tom Kunich wrote:> "Richard Thompson" <Jollyrodgerjele@webtv.net> wrote in message> news:24565-427E93A9-286@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...>> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I>> did last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in>> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with>> me. Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show>> me the door. Has anyone>> had a similar fall ? Richard>
No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the> owner not replacing them when necessary.>
I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're> in shape for the pros.
Odds on by 'hill' he means fifty yards at maybe 5%. Which any joker can sprint up at 30 mph.
Richard Thompson wrote:> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the> door. Has anyone had a> similar fall ? Richard>
@ @>
~~~>
You sure you were unconscious 45 minutes and they discharged you? Geez, managed care has gotten worse than I thought.
In article <24565-427E93A9-286@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net>, Jollyrodgerjele@webtv.net says...>
Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did>last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in>ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.>Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the>door. Has anyone had a>similar fall ?
30MPH uphill??? Wow! That's impressive. Was this a new cleat or old cleat? Where did the cleat break? Any pictures of the borken cleat? If the front tip broke off, chances are you didn't replace the cleat when you should have. The front tip of the cleat wears on the foot you put down at stop lights. If you walk in your cleats, they wear even faster. You need to keep an eye on your cleats and change them when they start to get thin. -------------- Alex
Richard Thompson 10 May 2005 05:23:34 [ permanent link ]
I suppose I could go back to using my trusty Cinneli pedals . They were called suicide pedals for a reason. I won them in a 3 day stage race back in the `70s. As I am 60 in august I may have ridden more miles than any two of you posting here. I never said I would be doing 30 at the top of the hill. THERE are HILLS in Georgia,, ask Lance. Yes I have ridden up Brasstown Bald on a single bike and a tandem. ( Short Wheelbase ,BOB JACKSON ) . I have taken pickup truck loads of sewup tires to the dump I`ve worn out. I would still like a few serious commennts about breaking Look cleats. I was racing way before the class system started. Then 18- 40 was one class. OOPS 300-600 somtimes started a race. Tough luck if you bought a bike today and lined up to race the national team tommorow. Children I only wanted comments about broken cleats ,,thanks
Curtis L . Russell 10 May 2005 17:14:53 [ permanent link ]
On Mon, 9 May 2005 21:23:34 -0400, Jollyrodgerjele@webtv.net (Richard Thompson) wrote:
I would still like>a few serious commennts about breaking Look cleats. I was racing way>before the class system started. Then 18- 40 was one class. OOPS 300-600>somtimes started a race. Tough luck if you bought a bike today and>lined up to race the national team tommorow.
You must have been racing young. I was racing in the ABLA in the early 70s and we were using A-B-C-D classes and there were juniors. There weren't many master riders back then (at least in Texas and the Monterey area of California) because the older guys seemed to be only doing training rides and running the clubs and races.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
Richard Thompson 11 May 2005 07:49:14 [ permanent link ]
Thanks Tom Kunich for a good answer. The look cleats that broke are on Time shoes with no ridge. I have never seen cleats break this way , but it does cause a bad fall. I`m back to about 50 miles a day but basicaly riding with one arm on hills because of shoulder pain. I guess Tyler is a tougher man than me. At least faster.Guess my blood may test funny also,with the crap one to me 18 years ago . One crazy doctor wanted to do a heart transplant. I tossed him out of the room , then went home and rode 150 miles to think the next day.
In article <1115749268.445155.263330@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
The older Look cleats have had their molds replaced many times over the> years I would expect and have gotten progressively smaller and hence> they rattle around in the pedal more than originally.
Hmm, I'm not sure how replacing the molds would make the cleats smaller, unless they purposely designed the new molds to be smaller. They'd have the dimensions of the originals on file (Iwould hope!), and it would be a simple matter to duplicate those dimensions. Even the French know how to use calipers, micrometers and CMMs. I wonder if the newer cleats are made differently, have a different material composition that shrinks more than the original stuff as it sets up, or if the pedals are no longer then same size (due to wear, or being deformed).
On Sun, 08 May 2005 23:36:48 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote:
"Richard Thompson" <Jollyrodgerjele@webtv.net> wrote in message >news:24565-427E93A9-286@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...>> Anyone had look cleats break while standing going up hill . Yep I did>> last sunday at 30 mph. Was a NASTY fall . Got a NOT FREE trip in>> ambulance to hospital. Head and neck checked hospital was done with me.>> Gee I was unconcious 45 min`s and they just take X rays and show me the>> door. Has anyone had a>> similar fall ? Richard>
No. Though I've seen a lot of Look cleats fail from wear and the owner not >replacing them when necessary.>
I have to tell you, if you can go up hill standing at 30 mph you're in shape >for the pros.>
I just had mine replaced for that reason, wear and tear, just in time for the new season. THe last pair I had did crack, but it was in an accident. I didn't notice until I got home. However, since i was injured and it was late in the season, that was kind of it for me.
REcently, a guy I know had his STEM crack- while he was DESCENDING a hilly street. It didn't break, fortunately. ! He made it to his LBS and it turns out the bolt had been too tight. Needless to say he was just a tad rattled. He could have ended up looking like marinara sauce!
Richard Thompson 12 May 2005 06:36:58 [ permanent link ]
Thanks Amit ,, I read the artical. Did not mention brand cleats used, but seems similar to my fall as I was sorta attacking on a short steep hill . Was told when cleat broke the loose foot hit pavement which shows by scrapes on shoe. Then it seems I hit head and about everyother part of me,,lol . But my cleat did not pull out, it broke in half. The front and rear of cleat did not break off. Oh well many bought new cleats since I fell or at least checked theirs. Richard
Richard Thompson 12 May 2005 06:43:27 [ permanent link ]
At my request one local shop had new Look Cleats deliverd. They now make a thinner cleat. Thinner cleats have nothing to do with older molds being replaced. I agree the French can make accurate measuments. Simply look at Look web site. The Look Knockoff cleats do not have wear indicators or teflon as the newer Look Cleats do. I would not use the Knockoffs. Gee only a $5 saving.
Richard Thompson 12 May 2005 06:51:48 [ permanent link ]
Mike I agree I might should have not been alone that first nite. Guess I should either get married again or just rent out a few rooms. I did take a good wack on my head, Hmmmm could be the toughest part of my body. At least my daughter and son in law called the next morning. Blood clots are noting to ignore. Richard
Richard Thompson 12 May 2005 06:57:07 [ permanent link ]
Blanshay I have seen falls caused by handlebars snapping in final sprints. nasty falls. Taylor Hogan had this happen in Tallahassy Fla Lucky for him he hit the curb ,,then soft grass.
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1115995678.781679.166830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Howard,>
Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce> the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original> cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a> model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that> the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make> a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller> again.>
Why would they do that instead of using the original specs they used for the initial molds?
In article <1115995678.781679.166830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Howard,>
Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce> the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original> cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a> model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that> the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make> a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller> again.
Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in quantities greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from an existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top and bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated piece that has overhangs, pockets or other features. The mold may be made completely by milling machines, or roughed out by mills and semi-finished by EDM (Electrical Discharge Machining, which uses a graphite or copper tungsten die to erode the base metal into a complex shape). The last step is hand polishing. The mold will have a port where the molten plastic enters, and a vent to allow the air in it to escape. Often, there are also provisions for ejector pins to knock the part out of the mold once the thermoplastic has set enough (which is usually a few seconds for a piece the size of a cleat). You can sometimes see where some of the segments of the mold are by looking for parting lines on the finished piece, but when molds are new or well maintained, the joints between segments are good enough that those lines are pretty minimal.
So the mold for a plastic part like a cleat is made from a few pieces of metal and is designed to open up to allow the part to come out after it's been made. It isn't like a mold for, say, a fibreglass part, where you can make the mold out of fibreglass on the original, to-be-copied part (like a boat hull or motorcycle bodywork) and peel it off (providing you used enough mold release). So if the Look cleats were a bit loose, it would likely be due to molds that were out of spec, or variations in cleat material that might shrink more than anticipated, or by design.
"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net> wrote in message news:GK4he.41351$gc6.12126@okepread04...>
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message> news:1115995678.781679.166830@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>> Howard,>>
Because plastic shrinks the real cleat model which is used to produce>> the mold is made a little larger. Over the years they lose the original>> cleat model. Then, when renewing the mold they use a regular cleat as a>> model. If you use a cleat instead of the model the end result is that>> the new mold produces a cleat a little bit smaller. Then when the make>> a new mold from the new smaller cleat it comes out a little smaller>> again.>>
Why would they do that instead of using the original specs they used for > the> initial molds?
Because it might cost $5,000 for the model to make the mold or even more in France. And the French, for those unaware of it, are some of the, uhhhh, thriftiest people I've ever met. One French company I worked for I got to work early in the morning and discovered the bosses wife washing out the paper coffee filters for reuse!!!
In article <0fehe.408$Lc1.145@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote:
"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message > news:YOURhoward-704454.19364613052005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...> >
Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in quantities> > greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from an> > existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are> > machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top and> > bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated piece > > that> > has overhangs, pockets or other features.>
For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a > straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so the > molds are as cheap as they can be made.
Indeed. But it's still going to be made the same way. They're going to be inexpensive but still effective. The point I was making is that the molds aren't made from an existing part, they're machined to dimensions on a drawing or CAD file. I'm going to be making a mold for a project I have soon, and take it to the plastic shop that used to be next door to my shop for production.
Tom Kunich wrote:> Because it might cost $5,000 for the model to make the mold or even more in > France. And the French, for those unaware of it, are some of the, uhhhh, > thriftiest people I've ever met. One French company I worked for I got to > work early in the morning and discovered the bosses wife washing out the > paper coffee filters for reuse!!!
And the moral of the story is: Don't buy French condoms (AKA freedom letters) ?
"Bill C" <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote in message news:1116246377.962938.113270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>
Tom Kunich wrote:>> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message>> news:YOURhoward-704454.19364613052005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...>> >
Well, for any kind of plastic item that is to be made in> quantities>> > greater than a few (say, one or two pieces), no molds are made from> an>> > existing item, like a cleat. The molds for a mass produced part are>> > machined from at least two pieces of aluminum or other metal (a top> and>> > bottom for a very simple part), to many pieces for a complicated> piece>> > that>> > has overhangs, pockets or other features.>>
For crying out loud Howard - just look at the damned cleat - it is a>> straight draw mold. This is supposed to be a profitable item and so> the>> molds are as cheap as they can be made.>
Hey Tom> When I worked at Kellogg Brush as a mechanic and machine set-up guy> they did things exactly the way Howard is describing with their molds> and those were for things like brush handles which sell a lot for less> than cleats. The only thing they did was to have a "library" of the> prototype molds along with all the documentation as a reference in case> they ever needed them. Since all the stuff they were making was pretty> small this was no big deal to do and they were pretty picky about> getting exactly what they wanted.> I didn't work down in molding much so I don't know a lot of the> details, but the system sounds exactly like what Howard is describing> from talking to the engineers and mechanics down there.> Bill C
The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure from.
Here's a question - I have a couple of new old-style cleats. These rattle in a new Look pedal but work OK in my old Shimano Look-type pedals.
I bought the latest Look Delta cleats with the teflon inner areas and they click in solidly.
Obviously there's a size difference here.
Do you suppose that they made the new cleats larger? Or that the old style were originally undersized? Or that there's something in the process that changes over time?
In article <UBcie.2754$Ri4.2666@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote:
The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on > the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure > from.
Well, since the pedals (and, by extension, the accompanying cleat) are a mainstay of Look's business, I'd be pretty stunned to find out they don't have a drawing or CAD file on hand. Stranger things have happened, but still... Reverse engineering (aka "copying") is exactly how someone would make unauthorized aftermarket ones. A smart engineer would know to increase the size because the shrink rates of the plastic are known (or ought to be).
Here's a question - I have a couple of new old-style cleats. These rattle in > a new Look pedal but work OK in my old Shimano Look-type pedals.>
I bought the latest Look Delta cleats with the teflon inner areas and they > click in solidly.>
Obviously there's a size difference here.>
Do you suppose that they made the new cleats larger? Or that the old style > were originally undersized? Or that there's something in the process that > changes over time?
Possibly (as Bill suggested) they were outsourced to a different vendor. Or perhaps differences in material, heating rates prior to injection or pressure of the injection (there are a few other variables, but those are the main ones). The ones with the teflon inserts would be made from a very different mold, however, as putting the two different materials in the same finished piece is a two stage process.
"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message news:YOURhoward-F83E7E.20123516052005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...> In article <UBcie.2754$Ri4.2666@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,> "Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote:>
The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file >> on>> the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to >> measure>> from.>
Well, since the pedals (and, by extension, the accompanying cleat) are a> mainstay of Look's business, I'd be pretty stunned to find out they don't> have a drawing or CAD file on hand.
But that doesn't mean that the mold maker has the NC machine that a CAD file just plugs into. Remember that older industries still have the manual numerical entry or even worse, one of those X-Y coordinate things that used a paper tape. They're still very good machines but the data entry is a question. Over the years since I've been using Look pedals the cleats have gotten progressively looser and looser. Finally I stopped using the Look pedals altogether and went to all of the swap meets and picked up as many DuraAce and Ultrgra Look-type pedals I could so that their slightly tighter fit would keep me in the pedals on climbs.
Stranger things have happened, but> still... Reverse engineering (aka "copying") is exactly how someone would> make unauthorized aftermarket ones. A smart engineer would know to > increase> the size because the shrink rates of the plastic are known (or ought to > be).
In a CAD program you can scale EVERYTHING with a single command. But first you have to have the $45,000 program and someone that knows all the details of how to use it.
I still prefer Look pedals to anything else and the latest cleats seem to wear better than the older one's. I already have 2,000 miles on one set and by now the older type would be breaking out at the rear clamp.
Tom Kunich wrote:> A government can't do this with any efficiency> because no one in a government cares what anything costs.
Well, it's possible that rather than "a" government, you meant "our" government, whose Executive branch, Senate, and House are all controlled by Republicans.
This accompanying graphic (updated to 2004 data) http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/healthexp.png shows that the US isn't out-of-whack in the proportion of GDP spent by government on health. The thing that makes the US an outlier is the amount spent by private sources on health. Among the "westernized" countries on that graphic, only in the US is a larger proportion of total health expenditures spent by private rather than public sources.
A system with massive government intervention (like in much of Western Europe) may be inefficient and fucked up, but that doesn't mean that a system with somewhat less government intervention can't also be inefficient and potentially even more fucked up.
"Robert Chung" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message news:3f0i5lF590m6U1@individual.net...> Tom Kunich wrote:>> A government can't do this with any efficiency>> because no one in a government cares what anything costs.>
Well, it's possible that rather than "a" government, you meant "our"> government, whose Executive branch, Senate, and House are all controlled> by Republicans.
Robert, then by all means if you need a major operation for a serious illness get treated in Denmark or Poland.
In article <2bzie.2760$Lc1.1774@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Tom Kunich" <tkunich@earthlink.net> wrote:
But that doesn't mean that the mold maker has the NC machine that a CAD file > just plugs into. Remember that older industries still have the manual > numerical entry or even worse, one of those X-Y coordinate things that used > a paper tape. They're still very good machines but the data entry is a > question.
Well, I'm speculating here, but I feel pretty certain when I say that almost all mold makers either have or have access to a reasonable CNC mill, unless they know they'll be only making very simple molds. Those older machines have been moved back to doing jobs that they're better suited for (simpler stuff), or sold to third-world shops. Newer machines have gotten fairly inexpensive and have good controls that'll do simultaneous three (or more) axis cuts without batting an eye (so to speak). And that kind of movement is one of the reasons why it's gotten easier to make parts (and molds) with very complex shapes quickly and relatively easily.
I've worked in shops where older machines have been retrofitted with new controls and servos, too. I haven't seen a tape reader machine in at least 12 years, though I know of shops with them.
A CAD file is imported into a CAM (computer aided machining) application (or is created right in the CAD/CAM app), and then the programmer uses that to make tool paths and create code that the CNC control understands.
In a CAD program you can scale EVERYTHING with a single command. But first > you have to have the $45,000 program and someone that knows all the details > of how to use it.
A lot of CNC machine controls have scaling in them. CAD/CAM programs *can* be that (and more) expensive, but there are many that are very functional for far less, like in the $3-4k range. Some of the most commonly used ones (like Mastercam or Gibbs) can be had for less than $10k. And they aren't all that hard to use if you spend the time to figure it out. The devil's in the details, of course...
Tom Kunich wrote:> "Robert Chung" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message> news:3f0i5lF590m6U1@individual.net...>> Tom Kunich wrote:>>> A government can't do this with any efficiency>>> because no one in a government cares what anything costs.>>
Well, it's possible that rather than "a" government, you meant "our">> government, whose Executive branch, Senate, and House are all>> controlled by Republicans.>
Robert, then by all means if you need a major operation for a serious> illness get treated in Denmark or Poland.
Oh, Tom. How long have you been under the misperception that the only three governments in the world are the US, Denmark, and Poland?
Tom Kunich wrote:>> Robert, then by all means if you need a major operation for a serious>> illness get treated in Denmark or Poland.
BTW, it's possible to get good (or poor) quality care in Denmark or Poland, just as it is possible to get good (or poor) quality care in the US. No matter what level of quality of care you get, it's likely to be less costly in Denmark or Poland.
This accompanying graphic (updated to 2004 data)> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/scpo/healthexp.png> shows that the US isn't out-of-whack in the proportion of GDP spent by> government on health. The thing that makes the US an outlier is the amount> spent by private sources on health. Among the "westernized" countries on> that graphic, only in the US is a larger proportion of total health> expenditures spent by private rather than public sources.
A system with massive government intervention (like in much of Western> Europe) may be inefficient and fucked up, but that doesn't mean that a> system with somewhat less government intervention can't also be> inefficient and potentially even more fucked up.
Does that include things like lasik and cosmetic surgery?
I'm just wondering the extent to which that is explained by inefficiency and how much is explained by disposable income being spent on medical procedures. Things that would have no impact on life expectancy.
In the US there is an entire industry built around looking better, guys like this:
heather wrote:>> anyhoo, i've been thinking of applying at an actual grocery store, because >> they sometimes are large chains and can offer benefits,.
I'm familiar with the job situation in Washington state, but wow, you could > probably make more as a Walmart greeter in California. I've got a spare > room......
With Micro$oft in the area I would have though there would have been a job available as a crash test dummy next time bill wants some ferrari's or lamborghini's crash tested.
h squared wrote:> "Scuffy is a toy tugboat (hence the title) who dreams of something more> than "sailing" in his little bathtub. When he is taken outside and> accidentally swept away in a river, his harrowing adventure makes him> realize that he should never have taken his old life for granted."
Hmmm. The moral of that story is vaguely like that of "La petite chevre de M. Seguin." The little goat longs for the alpine meadows high above the farm, where the sun is bright and the grass is tasty, so M. Seguin is forced to tie her up. She tries numerous times to escape and M. Seguin constructs more elaborate ways to keep her. Finally, the ingenious little goat succeeds in slipping the knot. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then she gets eaten by a wolf.
Hmmm. The moral of that story is vaguely like that of "La petite chevre> de M. Seguin." The little goat longs for the alpine meadows high above> the farm, where the sun is bright and the grass is tasty, so M. Seguin> is forced to tie her up. She tries numerous times to escape and M.> Seguin constructs more elaborate ways to keep her. Finally, the> ingenious little goat succeeds in slipping the knot. All day she> frolics in the meadows. Then she gets eaten by a wolf.
I've just been informed that my synopsis may not have conveyed the entire sense of the fable. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then, when night falls, she is terrorized by a fierce wolf. She defends herself bravely, using all the determination and ingenuity she exhibited earlier in her escape attempts. Then, after a long night and in sight of dawn, she gets eaten by the wolf.
I've just been informed that my synopsis may not have conveyed the entire> sense of the fable. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then, when night> falls, she is terrorized by a fierce wolf. She defends herself bravely,> using all the determination and ingenuity she exhibited earlier in her> escape attempts. Then, after a long night and in sight of dawn, she gets> eaten by the wolf.>
This is a story for pre-schoolers.
Can you compare and contrast this story with that, say, of "My Pet Goat", as read to schoolchildren in the US by one M. G. W. Bush?
John Forrest Tomlinson 21 May 2005 02:49:22 [ permanent link ]
On Fri, 20 May 2005 18:52:44 +0200, "Robert Chung" <me@address.invalid> wrote:
Hmmm. The moral of that story is vaguely like that of "La petite chevre>> de M. Seguin." The little goat longs for the alpine meadows high above>> the farm, where the sun is bright and the grass is tasty, so M. Seguin>> is forced to tie her up. She tries numerous times to escape and M.>> Seguin constructs more elaborate ways to keep her. Finally, the>> ingenious little goat succeeds in slipping the knot. All day she>> frolics in the meadows. Then she gets eaten by a wolf.>
I've just been informed that my synopsis may not have conveyed the entire>sense of the fable. All day she frolics in the meadows. Then, when night>falls, she is terrorized by a fierce wolf. She defends herself bravely,>using all the determination and ingenuity she exhibited earlier in her>escape attempts. Then, after a long night and in sight of dawn, she gets>eaten by the wolf.>
This is a story for pre-schoolers.>
What about "La Boum"?
JT
**************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************
Tom Kunich wrote:> The reason that it wouldn't go up is because the health care benefit is> now taxed and so workers aren't going to be happy paying full price> what they get for 30% off now.
So you're saying your solution involves raising taxes on workers?
i went to western. when i was in high school my favorite teacher ever told me that he thought western seemed like a good school for me, so that's the only place i applied ;)
but i thought you had a degree in economics, or do you have several? (so now it's- running a marathon, the fed, inline skating, only bathing occasionally, lattes&boobs, and math degrees- we have in common, if you were keeping track)
