It is easy and fun to be a "sky is falling guy" when it comes to doping. It is like McCarthyism. I think it takes more guts now to say hey "f" you there are alot of guys not on dope out there.
Stewart Fleming 26 February 2005 00:39:43 [ permanent link ]
matabala wrote:
He may be just faster than you, but you still thought it reasonable to > mention him by name. How is that different from the type of innuendo > DeCanio engages in, albeit with his disturbed, angry young man attitude?
John knows, but then, Lafferty is never wrong. He cannot be wrong. Laff will not admit failure (most men will admit failure, but Lafferty, not being a real man, will stick to his doping guns, ala DeCanio, until the Universe quits expanding).
EXCELLENT Post JL. Required reading and well written.
I can hardly wait (not) for the "man" Lafferty to write some sort of social screed follow-up.
He may be just faster than you, but you still thought it reasonable to> mention him by name. How is that different from the type of innuendo > DeCanio engages in, albeit with his disturbed, angry young man attitude?
If you can't see the difference, you must be the only one. Sheesh.
-- Bob C.
"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts." T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)
"John Lieswyn" <jlieswyn@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:BtPTd.55159$tl3.12460@attbi_s02...> Yeah, and just because one rider on Grand Performance Bianchi tested> positive, does that implicate the whole team? Juan Pineda (without any of> us knowing) took a bodybuilding supplement, tested positive, admitted it,> got fired and quit the sport simultaneously, and none of the rest of us > were> tarnished with his foolishness. (2002)
Maybe you can help Urs Frueller find a new job. It's all about taint. The issue is how far the taint spreads and over what period of time. The more riders on a team who test positive within a given period of time, the more problematic it is for team managment and the other riders. As time passes, the taint deminishes due to a growing lack of relevence.
Gus Carillo did a fantastic job, working 20 hours a day, managing our > Chile> team. There was testing there, by the way. Saying that because rider A> tested pos for team X that rider B who rode for team X three years ago is> also guilty is the worst kind of circumstantial innuendo.>
- Both Dewey Dickey and Gus Carillo have ridden in the past for>> GP. Dewey came up positive in Guatemala. Gus directed the team>> JL rode with in Chile.>>
- The link to the veterinary web site is even more tenuous. But>> here goes.>>
There is a picture of the operator of that web site in a GP>> jersey taken before a Madison. His partner rode for GP and like>> jerseys are required in a Madison. I do not believe he has>> ever ridden for GP.>>
The web site does not sell finished goods, like John is saying>> are kept track of by the DEA. He sells supplies for>> do-it-yourself veterinary grade dope. He's been raided twice>> and beaten it twice. So you'd have to conclude that what he>> is doing is completely legal, especially given how openly he's>> doing it.>>
FWIW he was tested last year at track nationals and came up>> negative.>>
John and I are in agreement that Matt has gone off the deep end.>> I don't know what the hell Sierra Nevada was thinking when they>> signed him.>>
"B Lafferty" <Coppi@Lugano.com> wrote in message news:zEOTd.7033$Ba3.6016@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...>
Bill, I think your points are very well taken. John is relating what he's > seen which is very little doping.
That is not exactly what he said. His OPINION is that there is very little doping. He never mentions how, who, when, how much he'd actually witnessed first hand. None of us would reasonably expect him to do so, would we? I'm intentionally splitting hairs here but you get the picture. While it's probable that his opinion is based on what he'd experienced, I'm not ready to forget that the closed circuit of pro racing does have a certain vested interest, not least on the public image front, to be seen as having their house in order.
As John says regarding American pros, "....... my opinion is that VERY FEW >of them are cheating." As you point out, Bill, there is a significant >amount of anecdotal information that doping exists in US cycling and there >are now increasing positives to prove it, including at least one EPO >positive and an American saint facing a CAS hearing next week on his >positives.> The unfortunate reality is that a rider's assertion that he is clean can > no longer be taken at face value, whether that rider is John, Chris > Boardman, David Millar or Johan Museeuw. Taking such assertions at face > value requires a leap of faith which many are no longer willing to make in > light of recent doping admissions and positives.> While I very much appreciate and applaud John's attitude about being > beaten by another that the person is clean until proven dirty and that > John is happy to compete that way, doesn't mean that John is in fact > competing on a level playing field. Someone else might have a very > different attitude career-wise and be infuriated that the field may well > not be level. Given what numerous pros have related about the ease with > which doping controls are circumvented, one has to wonder how any clean > rider who loses can not have a nagging doubt in the back of their mind as > to whether or not the competition was legitimate.> As you point out, the sad reality is that anyone who breaks the code of > silence is vilified in knee jerk fashion by everyone on the inside of the > sport from Hein Verbruggen, to team managers, to fellow riders and from > the fans, mostly in the United States.>
Aren't you going just a bit overboard with that last sentence? Words like anyone and everyone are awfully manichean for a problem that certainly isn't. It's only Michael Jackson who sees things as black or white.> They can kill as many messengers as they> like, but given the nature of the substances being abused, the bodies will > continue to pile up, claims of death by natural causes notwithstanding.> Too bad Lieswyn doesn't talk more about the "code of silence" aspect of the pro game. I've got tons of respect for him as a rider, his columns are always informative, well-written and thoughtful. Can't help but think, however, what's left unsaid in the post is more noteworthy than his defending his name and livelihood.
Andy Coggan 26 February 2005 16:50:56 [ permanent link ]
"Bill C" <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote in message news:1109384244.677876.288100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...>
k.papai wrote:>> You're so PRO Lafferty I guess you KNOW.>>
-Ken>
Ken do you think there is a problem? How big do you think it is? What> would you do about it? You are aware of the budgetary limits of USAC> too right?
What does USAC's budget have to do with it? They haven't been responsible for drug testing for a number of years now.
Carl Sundquist 26 February 2005 19:16:22 [ permanent link ]
"Bill C" <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote in message> I can't seem to find> the USAC budget and audit. I thought someone had posted it a while ago> though.
k.papai wrote:> You're so PRO Lafferty I guess you KNOW.>
-Ken>
Things like this get said frequently in this NG. Sometimes the "PRO"-ness of the poster is irrelevant to the subject. Not this time. There have been thousands (OK, I'm being conservative) of posts about drugs in cycling in this NG written by people with no particular experience or evidence. There is the weird possibility that we could read what John Lieswyn has to say and consider it in the same light as what the rest of us (who are just shooting off our mouths) have to say.
How much arrogance would it take for me to argue (or even agree) with Lieswyn over this? It's not like I'm really lacking in that capacity but I find myself falling short.
Anthony Caraccia 26 February 2005 20:24:09 [ permanent link ]
Yes. It will be an interesting day in court when the defendants lawyer calls the former junior rider on the stand and asks him if he ever injected himself and if he can name every product that was ever injected into him.
Anthony Caraccia 26 February 2005 20:55:54 [ permanent link ]
Also the question whether he was injected whilst racing in Spain and if so was aware of every product and its pharmaecological function that was injected into him during that time.
Kurgan Gringioni 26 February 2005 21:47:25 [ permanent link ]
John Lieswyn wrote:
<snip>
Dumbass -
You really shouldn't post here. Brian Lafferty knows much more about doping in the North American racing scene than you do, he's already educated all of us and will continue to do so.
Bob Schwartz 28 February 2005 03:42:52 [ permanent link ]
Bill C <tritonrider@aol.com> wrote:> My impression was that along with the government grant USADA was> funded by contracts with the client governing bodies. I see this for> USOC but not for the others in ADA's audit report. I can't seem to find> the USAC budget and audit. I thought someone had posted it a while ago> though.
Theu make you establish an account and log in now, so you can't post a direct link. Search on 'USA Cycling' and go through the login flips and twists to see it.
