Hey all, I'm trying to find out some boxing info for my dad who's a fan, so I thought I'd try the net - there's most likely a few enthusiasts Umm, the first question is How many Australian world title holders have there been (in all the different leagues/competitions I guess). And secondly, how many undefeated world champions have there been, in all the weight divisions? I only know about Marciano in heavyweight. Anyways, any help you can provide is hugely appreciated! Thanks, - Luke
"L" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:TpU_d.3805$C7.3078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...> Hey all,> I'm trying to find out some boxing info for my dad who's a fan, so I > thought I'd try the net - there's most likely a few enthusiasts > Umm, the first question is How many Australian world title holders have > there been (in all the different leagues/competitions I guess).> And secondly, how many undefeated world champions have there been, in all > the weight divisions? I only know about Marciano in heavyweight.> Anyways, any help you can provide is hugely appreciated!> Thanks,> - Luke>
Only Marciano in the history of gloved boxing went an entire pro career without a loss, or even a draw.
Among heavyweights, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, and Lennox Lewis all retired while champion, but Jeffries and Louis tried comebacks and were beaten. It remains to be seen if Lennox Lewis stays retired.
Some great fighters have had longer strings of victories than Marciano, but at lighter weights. For example, Packey McFarland (lightweight) lost his first pro fight via a 5th round KO, then didn't lose again for the remaining 103 bouts of his career (though there were ND decisions on his record during the era of the ND). Sugar Ray Robinson won 91 fights in a row until losing to Randy Turpin of England. Willie Pep won his first 63 fights before losing on a decision, then he won 73 more in a row before his second loss.
As to Australian world champions of the past: Young Griffo (1890) Featherweight Jimmy Carruthers (1952) Bantamweight Lionel Rose (1968) Bantamweight Jeff Fenech (1985) IBF Bantamweight
More recently there have been Australian champions but someone else with more knowledge of recent years will have to come up with them. Robbie Peden just won a junior-lightweight title. And Nedal Hussein had a version of the super bantamweight title.
There have been champions fighting out of Australian, such as Vic Darchinyan, who is from Armenia, and trained by Jeff Fenech, as is Hussein. And of course Kostya Tszyu, light welterweight champ.
Bob Fitzsimmons is often mentioned as being from Australia, because he lived in Australia prior to coming to the US to challenge Jim Corbett for the heavyweight title, but he was born in England.
Mwhaught@Excite.Com 19 March 2005 21:59:42 [ permanent link ]
Among heavyweights, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, and>Lennox Lewis all retired while champion, but Jeffries and Louis>tried comebacks and were beaten. It remains to be seen if Lennox>Lewis stays retired.
Ali belongs on the "retiring as champion" and "came back and were beaten " lists.
"L" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message news:TpU_d.3805$C7.3078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...> Hey all,> I'm trying to find out some boxing info for my dad who's a fan, so I > thought I'd try the net - there's most likely a few enthusiasts > Umm, the first question is How many Australian world title holders have > there been (in all the different leagues/competitions I guess).> And secondly, how many undefeated world champions have there been, in all > the weight divisions? I only know about Marciano in heavyweight.> Anyways, any help you can provide is hugely appreciated!> Thanks,> - Luke> The list of "official" Australian world champions would include: Jimmy Carruthers, Lionel Rose, Johnny Famechon, Lester Ellis, Barry Michael, Jeff Fenech, Jeff Harding, Kostya Tszyu, Vic Darchinian, Anthony Mundine and Robbie Peden. There were some unofficial world champions such as Les Darcy and Young Griffo, as mentioned by Bobby.
The Sanity Cruzer 20 March 2005 02:41:55 [ permanent link ]
"Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:Wx0%d.56067$%Y4.20679@bignews6.bellsouth.net...>
"mwhaught@excite.com" <mwhaught@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1111255182.154887.212200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>> >Among heavyweights, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, and>>>Lennox Lewis all retired while champion, but Jeffries and Louis>>>tried comebacks and were beaten. It remains to be seen if Lennox>>>Lewis stays retired.>>
Ali belongs on the "retiring as champion" and "came back and were>> beaten " lists.>>
-mwh>>
I suppose, though his was a forced retirement and he never quit trying to > get his license back to continue his career.
At one point, IIRC, Ali abdicated the HW championship. That's why he was the challenger and Frazier was the champ when they fought in '71.
"The Sanity Cruzer" <sanitycruzeNrO@eSaPrAtMhlink.net> wrote in message news:TU1%d.14852$cN6.5401@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...> "Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > news:Wx0%d.56067$%Y4.20679@bignews6.bellsouth.net...>>
"mwhaught@excite.com" <mwhaught@gmail.com> wrote in message >> news:1111255182.154887.212200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>>> >Among heavyweights, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, and>>>>Lennox Lewis all retired while champion, but Jeffries and Louis>>>>tried comebacks and were beaten. It remains to be seen if Lennox>>>>Lewis stays retired.>>>
Ali belongs on the "retiring as champion" and "came back and were>>> beaten " lists.>>>
-mwh>>>
I suppose, though his was a forced retirement and he never quit trying to >> get his license back to continue his career.>
At one point, IIRC, Ali abdicated the HW championship. That's why he was > the challenger and Frazier was the champ when they fought in '71.>
Ali was stripped of the title, but continued to call himself the people's champion.
"mwhaught@excite.com" <mwhaught@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1111268035.707915.21060@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...> >I suppose, though his was a forced retirement and he never>>quit trying to get his license back to continue his career.>
Did he not retire as WBA champ after winning the rematch with Leon> Spinks? Then attempt the comeback fights against Holmes and later> Berbick.>
-mwh>
You're right. I forgot about his retirement after he took the title back from Spinks.
"Neil Kavanagh" <phenchan@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:GX0%d.4032$C7.3958@news-server.bigpond.net.au...> "L" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message > news:TpU_d.3805$C7.3078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...>> Hey all,>> I'm trying to find out some boxing info for my dad who's a fan, so I >> thought I'd try the net - there's most likely a few enthusiasts >> Umm, the first question is How many Australian world title holders have >> there been (in all the different leagues/competitions I guess).>> And secondly, how many undefeated world champions have there been, in all >> the weight divisions? I only know about Marciano in heavyweight.>> Anyways, any help you can provide is hugely appreciated!>> Thanks,>> - Luke>>
The list of "official" Australian world champions would include:> Jimmy Carruthers, Lionel Rose, Johnny Famechon, Lester Ellis, Barry > Michael, Jeff> Fenech, Jeff Harding, Kostya Tszyu, Vic Darchinian, Anthony Mundine and > Robbie> Peden. There were some unofficial world champions such as Les Darcy and > Young Griffo,> as mentioned by Bobby.>
Regards> Neil Kavanagh>
I knew I was missing a couple guys.
By the way, I wrote an article for Eastside Boxing a year or two back about Jimmy Carruthers defense against Chamroen Songkitrat of Thailand. They fought in an outdoor ring in a heavy rainstorm. There had been three days of heavy rains in Bangkok and it was still raining at fight time. The government refused to allow a postponement because of the large numbers of people who had come into the city to see the fight and had no where to stay.
Carruthers asked if they could fight barefoot because of the slippery conditions of the ring, which pleased Songkitrat, who was also a kickboxer. Nat Fleischer was "elected" by the government as the ruling official and the only judge was the referee. Carruthers' wife, and the wife of his trainer, served as his seconds.
They sloshed around the ring and both fighters fell down more than once because of the treacherous footing. Carruthers landed on his chin and cut his mouth due to one slippage and Songkitrat had his feet shoot out from under him and land him hard on his back in the second round.
At times the high winds would shake loose light bulbs from the overhead rigging and these would shatter in the ring. The fight would be halted while men with push brooms swept glass and water out of the ring. In the 11th round Carruthers cut his foot on the glass but the fight went the full 12 rounds and Carruthers won the referee/judges decision.
The Sanity Cruzer 20 March 2005 04:27:18 [ permanent link ]
"Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:og2%d.44654$5T6.21829@bignews4.bellsouth.net...>
"The Sanity Cruzer" <sanitycruzeNrO@eSaPrAtMhlink.net> wrote in message > news:TU1%d.14852$cN6.5401@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...>> "Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message >> news:Wx0%d.56067$%Y4.20679@bignews6.bellsouth.net...>>>
"mwhaught@excite.com" <mwhaught@gmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:1111255182.154887.212200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>>>> >Among heavyweights, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, and>>>>>Lennox Lewis all retired while champion, but Jeffries and Louis>>>>>tried comebacks and were beaten. It remains to be seen if Lennox>>>>>Lewis stays retired.>>>>
Ali belongs on the "retiring as champion" and "came back and were>>>> beaten " lists.>>>>
-mwh>>>>
I suppose, though his was a forced retirement and he never quit trying >>> to get his license back to continue his career.>>
At one point, IIRC, Ali abdicated the HW championship. That's why he was >> the challenger and Frazier was the champ when they fought in '71.>>
Ali was stripped of the title, but continued to call himself the people's > champion.
Then we disagree. While he was stripped, he did at some point, IIRC, abdicate his title, if only for a short period of time. I'd bet on it.
The Sanity Cruzer 20 March 2005 04:39:17 [ permanent link ]
"The Sanity Cruzer" <sanitycruzeNrO@eSaPrAtMhlink.net> wrote in message news:Gr3%d.200$H06.54@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...> "Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
Ali was stripped of the title, but continued to call himself the people's >> champion.>
Then we disagree. While he was stripped, he did at some point, IIRC, > abdicate his title, if only for a short period of time. I'd bet on it.
Check out boxrec.com's listing for Ali, specifically just below the 1967 bout with Zora Folley, where it says, "Due to legal troubles, Ali would not fight for the next three years. He officially retired on 1970-02-01 to allow the winner of the upcoming Joe Frazier-Jimmy Ellis unification bout to be considered the undisputed champion."
That is what I recall. He officially announced his retirement, thereby abdicating his title.
Bobby, Neil and everyone else: you've been that helpful, thanks heaps. This will please my dad to no end when I call him up later. So no other weight didvision (besides HW) has had an undefeated champ? God. I'll tell him about the 'longer winning bouts than Marciano' thing, he'll love that. Thanks again, - Luke
"Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:Gw2%d.44668$5T6.37047@bignews4.bellsouth.net...>
"Neil Kavanagh" <phenchan@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message > news:GX0%d.4032$C7.3958@news-server.bigpond.net.au...>> "L" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message >> news:TpU_d.3805$C7.3078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...>>> Hey all,>>> I'm trying to find out some boxing info for my dad who's a fan, so I >>> thought I'd try the net - there's most likely a few enthusiasts >>> Umm, the first question is How many Australian world title holders have >>> there been (in all the different leagues/competitions I guess).>>> And secondly, how many undefeated world champions have there been, in >>> all the weight divisions? I only know about Marciano in heavyweight.>>> Anyways, any help you can provide is hugely appreciated!>>> Thanks,>>> - Luke>>>
The list of "official" Australian world champions would include:>> Jimmy Carruthers, Lionel Rose, Johnny Famechon, Lester Ellis, Barry >> Michael, Jeff>> Fenech, Jeff Harding, Kostya Tszyu, Vic Darchinian, Anthony Mundine and >> Robbie>> Peden. There were some unofficial world champions such as Les Darcy and >> Young Griffo,>> as mentioned by Bobby.>>
Regards>> Neil Kavanagh>>
I knew I was missing a couple guys.>
By the way, I wrote an article for Eastside Boxing a year or two back > about Jimmy Carruthers defense against Chamroen Songkitrat of Thailand. > They fought in an outdoor ring in a heavy rainstorm. There had been three > days of heavy rains in Bangkok and it was still raining at fight time. The > government refused to allow a postponement because of the large numbers of > people who had come into the city to see the fight and had no where to > stay.>
Carruthers asked if they could fight barefoot because of the slippery > conditions of the ring, which pleased Songkitrat, who was also a > kickboxer. Nat Fleischer was "elected" by the government as the ruling > official and the only judge was the referee. Carruthers' wife, and the > wife of his trainer, served as his seconds.>
They sloshed around the ring and both fighters fell down more than once > because of the treacherous footing. Carruthers landed on his chin and cut > his mouth due to one slippage and Songkitrat had his feet shoot out from > under him and land him hard on his back in the second round.>
At times the high winds would shake loose light bulbs from the overhead > rigging and these would shatter in the ring. The fight would be halted > while men with push brooms swept glass and water out of the ring. In the > 11th round Carruthers cut his foot on the glass but the fight went the > full 12 rounds and Carruthers won the referee/judges decision.>
Bobby Bearden>
Thanks for that Bobby. As always you have proven to be a fountain of wisdom and the story of Currujthers-Songkitrat is not one I had heard before-even living in Jimmy's home coutry. After his (second) retirement-he retired originally as an undefeated world champion I believe-Jimmy was Australia's leading referee over many years.
The Sanity Cruzer 20 March 2005 08:21:50 [ permanent link ]
"L" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message newse4%d.4202$C7.2448@news-server.bigpond.net.au...> Bobby, Neil and everyone else:> you've been that helpful, thanks heaps.> This will please my dad to no end when I call him up later.> So no other weight didvision (besides HW) has had an undefeated champ?
I doubt Bobby said that. Marciano's record was perfect, all wins. Ricardo Lopez retired as an undefeated (no losses) champion, but had one draw on his record. Lopez was an incredibly talented fighter.
"The Sanity Cruzer" <sanitycruzeNrO@eSaPrAtMhlink.net> wrote in message news:yT6%d.297$H06.98@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...> "L" <blah@blah.com> wrote in message > newse4%d.4202$C7.2448@news-server.bigpond.net.au...>> Bobby, Neil and everyone else:>> you've been that helpful, thanks heaps.>> This will please my dad to no end when I call him up later.>> So no other weight didvision (besides HW) has had an undefeated champ?>
I doubt Bobby said that. Marciano's record was perfect, all wins. > Ricardo Lopez retired as an undefeated (no losses) champion, but had one > draw on his record. Lopez was an incredibly talented fighter.>
I said Marciano finished with no losses and no draws and has been the only one to do that. Perfect record. And it may come to pass that others do the same. But, Marciano will always have the distinction of being the only one to accomplish it during the entire 20th century, which should always be impressive.
Robert Phillips 21 March 2005 16:54:26 [ permanent link ]
Bobby Bearden wrote:
I said Marciano finished with no losses and no draws and has been the only > one to do that. Perfect record.> And it may come to pass that others do the same. But, Marciano will always > have the distinction of being the only one to accomplish it during the > entire 20th century, which should always be impressive.
Is it too soon after his retirement (almost exactly one year ago) to include Sven Ottke, who retired at 34-0-0 and hasn't yet made a comeback?
"Robert Phillips" <rpie@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:6uz%d.224200$JF2.39969@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...> Bobby Bearden wrote:>
I said Marciano finished with no losses and no draws and has been the >> only one to do that. Perfect record.>> And it may come to pass that others do the same. But, Marciano will >> always have the distinction of being the only one to accomplish it during >> the entire 20th century, which should always be impressive.>
Is it too soon after his retirement (almost exactly one year ago) to > include Sven Ottke, who retired at 34-0-0 and hasn't yet made a comeback?>
Pie
Jeffries waited five years to come back. Foreman, though he didn't retire with a perfect record, waited a lot longer before coming back.
With mulitple belts out there, it has become easier for a good fighter to retire as an undefeated champion, and it has to water down the significance of doing it.
If Darius Michalczewski had retired after beating Derrick Harmon he would have been 48-0-0, but very few really believed he was the best light heavyweight in the world during his career. Even though I always felt Roy Jones should have fought him anywhere in the world, I also expected Jones to win if they did fight.
Looking at other Europeon fighters, I see Zsolt Erdei at 22-0 with a WBO light heavyweight belt and he's already about 31 years old. Wayne Braithwaite holds the WBC cruiserweight belt at 21-0 and he's almost 30 years old. Either of them could retire undefeated with a few more easy fights.
Joe Calzaghe is 38-0 with the WBO super middleweight belt and is already 32. Mikkel Kessler has the WBA version of the same belt and is 35-0. Jeff Lacy has the IBF version and is 19-0. Librado Andrade owns the WBO NABO belt as sits at 22-0. And Vitali Tsypko has the WBA International super middleweight belt at 15-0. Even if we discount the last two belts, we still have the WBO, WBA, and IBF belts held by three different undefeated fighters.
Jermain Taylor has the WBC Continental Americas middleweight belt at 23-0 and Arthur Abraham at 15-0 has the WBA Intercontinental middleweight belt. Lesser belts but still, it shows how easy it is for a fighter to be undefeated and hold some kind of belt.
Actually, I got tired of searching through all the undefeated guy who hold some kind of belt. Where do we draw the line as far as recognizing them as an undefeated champion if they retire perfect?
As I pointed out above, in the super middleweights you have three different undefeated guys with the WBO, WBA, and IBF belts. If they never fight each other and all retire undefeated, what does it prove?
Sven Ottke had two of those belts, the WBA and IBF, when he retired. If Boxrec is correct, six months before he retired, his WBA belt was already being fought over as a "vacant" belt, even though he's shown as retiring as the WBA super middleweight champion. The belt goes to 18-1 Anthony Mundine when he beats Antwun Echols, is defended successfully once against Yoshinori Nishizawa who has a sterling record of 24-13-5, then lost to 17-4 Manny Siaca who promptly loses it to Mikkel Kessler.
Meanwhile, Ottke's IBF belt becomes vacant and is taken by Jeff Lacey, who is 16-0 at the time, when he beats Syd Vanderpool. Lacey has defended successfully against Omar Sheika and Rubin Williams (Sheika is a very good fighter).
But obviously, the men with perfect records holding the belts aren't fighting each other. And Ottke wasn't defending against any of the men who fought over his belts (though he had fought and beat Mundine three years earlier in an IBF title defense). Nor did he fight the WBC super middleweight title holder, Markus Beyer, even though both are from Germany and fighting in Germany, or the other undefeated super middleweight champion Joe Calzaghe with the WBO belt right across the channel in England.
Now, maybe all these men with perfect records and some version of the belts will fight each other. And maybe they'll retire with the belt without risking it against one of the other belt holders. The question then must be, how much credibility do we give to perfect records when you have multiple champion in the same weight class who have perfect records but don't fight each other?
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:27:18 GMT, "The Sanity Cruzer" <sanitycruzeNrO@eSaPrAtMhlink.net> wrote:
"Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message >news:og2%d.44654$5T6.21829@bignews4.bellsouth.net...>>
"The Sanity Cruzer" <sanitycruzeNrO@eSaPrAtMhlink.net> wrote in message >> news:TU1%d.14852$cN6.5401@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...>>> "Bobby Bearden" <thonn@bellsouth.net> wrote in message >>> news:Wx0%d.56067$%Y4.20679@bignews6.bellsouth.net...>>>>
"mwhaught@excite.com" <mwhaught@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>> news:1111255182.154887.212200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>>>>> >Among heavyweights, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, and>>>>>>Lennox Lewis all retired while champion, but Jeffries and Louis>>>>>>tried comebacks and were beaten. It remains to be seen if Lennox>>>>>>Lewis stays retired.>>>>>
Ali belongs on the "retiring as champion" and "came back and were>>>>> beaten " lists.>>>>>
-mwh>>>>>
I suppose, though his was a forced retirement and he never quit trying >>>> to get his license back to continue his career.>>>
At one point, IIRC, Ali abdicated the HW championship. That's why he was >>> the challenger and Frazier was the champ when they fought in '71.>>>
Ali was stripped of the title, but continued to call himself the people's >> champion.>
Then we disagree. While he was stripped, he did at some point, IIRC, >abdicate his title, if only for a short period of time. I'd bet on it.
FWIW, that is the way that I remember it too. Even the Ring, which continued to recognize Ali as the champion throughout his exile recognized Fraizer as the champion on March 8, 1971. IIRC, Ali, thinking that Ellis would beat Fraizer "retired" before their unification match.
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