On Sun, 07 May 2006 11:38:43 -0700, Skip Gundlach wrote:
As I work my way back from the bow (the bulkhead forward of the> saloon), being almost finished in there, my thoughts turn to what's> ahead (or behind/astern, as you prefer).>
I succeeded in buying a second Racor on eBay, and two mounted 2-way> valves at a flea market, but would prefer to not have to reinvent the> wheel, as I'm sure there are many here who have done it already.>
I considered an already-built dual system, a standard Racor part> number, but it was prohibitively expensive. Theirs, of course, has a> single valve which controls all functions, and a vacuum guage.>
Can anyone point me to how to make two separate filters set up in> parallel with the least amount of fuss about it?>
Thanks.>
Skip>
Morgan 461 #2> SV Flying Pig KI4MPC> http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we> bought her>
"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely> nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,> messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.> In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,> that's the charm of it.> Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your> destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never> get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in> particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to> do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."
Yield of a Google Image search for "fuel polishing"
I don't have a current picture but basically I took a pair of 500FG and mounted them on a board. The one on the right was turned to face backwards so both of the "in" ports faced each other. There is a three way 3/8" NPT valve between these two ports with an SAE adapter. Center goes to the day tank and the outputs go to the Racor "in" ports. Then on the outsides I came from the "out" ports with an SAE to NPT elbow to a 2" nipple. Then a NPT to Swagelok elbow and a short length of stainless tube to the second 3 way valve. The center port of this valve goes to the engine. I set the valve handles so that they both point to the active filter.
Theoretically the procedure to change elements is (assuming you have a couple of paper towels to catch the drips and clean up and you have either gravity feed or a small fuel pump at the tank. ) 1. Drain the crud out of the bowl of the current filter. 2. Turn both valves to the new filter, 3. Crack open the top of the filter to be changed and drain the contents into a container. 4. Replace the old element and refill with the fuel you drained in step 3. 5. Replace the lid but leave it slightly loose. 6. Switch back to the original filter. 7. Tighten the lid as soon as you see a little fuel start to come out of the top.
This is not the recommended procedure because Racor recommends that the filters be in slight vacuum rather than pressure but it works. If your set up has the engine pull the fuel so that the filters stay in slight vacuum, refill the filter with additional fuel within about 1/8" from the top and close the lid tightly. This small amount of air will remain at the top of the filter and away from the out port.
All of the parts are available on eBay but the SAE fittings. They are like hydraulic fittings but not quite and they ain't cheap.
"Skip Gundlach" <SkipGundlach@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1147027123.244712.203410@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> As I work my way back from the bow (the bulkhead forward of the> saloon), being almost finished in there, my thoughts turn to what's> ahead (or behind/astern, as you prefer).>
I succeeded in buying a second Racor on eBay, and two mounted 2-way> valves at a flea market, but would prefer to not have to reinvent the> wheel, as I'm sure there are many here who have done it already.>
I considered an already-built dual system, a standard Racor part> number, but it was prohibitively expensive. Theirs, of course, has a> single valve which controls all functions, and a vacuum guage.>
Can anyone point me to how to make two separate filters set up in> parallel with the least amount of fuss about it?>
Thanks.>
Skip>
Morgan 461 #2> SV Flying Pig KI4MPC> http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we> bought her>
"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely> nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,> messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.> In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,> that's the charm of it.> Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your> destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never> get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in> particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to> do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not.">
On Sun, 07 May 2006 16:20:34 -0700, Skip Gundlach wrote:
Thanks for the responses so far.>
The boat pix is a factory job - the one I passed on cuz instead of> under a hundred, it was more like 500 in the bidding - and I already> had one. OTOH, if anyone knows where to buy the not-filters part of> that, certainly, that's the best way. However, I'll also pour over the> diagrams to see if that makes sense to me. The story about the hose> gave me chills - fortunately, mine's only 1/4" ID, and already bought.>
My idea was, indeed, to be able to change the filter on the fly.> Having the ability to use one of them for fuel polishing wasn't my> priority, but interesting. As bouncy as the ride over when we bought> it was, it's possible we can get away without that. However, an ounce> of prevention, etc.>
I'll have to sketch it out to see if I can visualize Glenn's - but I'm> sure his engineering mind will have it worked out :{)) Glenn, does it> look diagrammatically like the one before?>
Keep those cards and letters coming :{))>
And, as always, Thanks.>
Skip>
PS another Morgan Sailor - same hull, different deck, 452 #3, got the> raft>
Morgan 461 #2> SV Flying Pig KI4MPC> http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we> bought her>
"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely> nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,> messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.> In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,> that's the charm of it.> Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your> destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never> get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in> particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to> do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."
Approx. 2/3 of the way down the page. You need 2 three way valves. The brass valve should work. It is like a tank selector valve on some older dual tank trucks that had manual selection of fuel tanks. http://www.jackssmallengines.com/barens_valve_ball.cfm
Each 3way valve will have to be turned to a position so fuel flows through one filter and then through other valve to engine. Fuel should flow through filter A or Filter B but not both at the same time. If one valve is turned the wrong way you will have no flow to engine.
Copy and paste this to a text editor such as notepad. It should become clear.
On 7 May 2006 11:38:43 -0700, "Skip Gundlach" <SkipGundlach@gmail.com> wrote:
As I work my way back from the bow (the bulkhead forward of the>saloon), being almost finished in there, my thoughts turn to what's>ahead (or behind/astern, as you prefer).>
I succeeded in buying a second Racor on eBay, and two mounted 2-way>valves at a flea market, but would prefer to not have to reinvent the>wheel, as I'm sure there are many here who have done it already.>
I considered an already-built dual system, a standard Racor part>number, but it was prohibitively expensive. Theirs, of course, has a>single valve which controls all functions, and a vacuum guage.>
Can anyone point me to how to make two separate filters set up in>parallel with the least amount of fuss about it?
Basically you need a supply line going to the tank feeding both filters through their own on/off ball valve. The output side to the engine looks the same, again with each filter with having its own ball valve (total of 4). This allows the Racors to be totally isolated during a filter change, which in turn allows "hot swapping" a filter while underway. A vacuum guage on the suction side (towards the engine) is very important. Without that you will not have an accurate baseline for knowing when to change filters. I like to change mine before they get to 5 psi since the Racors will start passing contamination on through at about that point.
I normally leave the input valves on both filters open, and turn off the output valve for the Racor not in use. If I suspect that a filter element is becoming clogged (higher vacuum guage reading), I will open the output valve on the second filter to verify that pressure drops. If so, I close both input and output valves on the clogged unit until I'm ready to change out the element.
If you have a large tank, and the boat will be sitting idle for any length of time, a fuel polishing system is highly desirable, and well worth the expense for the extra valves and fuel pump. An additional electric fuel pump that can be valved in and out is also useful for repriming and bleeding the fuel system. These are small touches that can do a lot for overall reliability and ease of maintenance.
You need two tees & four valves. A valve on EITHER side of each filter will allow switching out the filter while under vacuum ... and without leaking all over the place.
How to run a parallel filter set with block and bypass: Run both filters ON-LINE (active) .... as you will get ~3 times the life as with running one to clogging then switching to the other 1+1 = 2. If you run BOTH then the deposition of debris will tend to be more ON the surface of the filter media than IN the filter media as with flow to one. Monitor the performance with gages and when the vacuum indication begins to move significantly, then shut the bypass and change one, then run full open while chaning the other and then put it back on line = 2 on line --- simply run with a momentary high differential pressure on one as your continue to run on the other. Best is to use wired differential pressure (vacuum) switches across each filter wired to an alarm. You can set the 'trip' pressure that the pressure activates the alarm. Pressure feed is vastly better than vacuum feed with respect to filtration .... significantly extendes the service life of filters - has to do with the way that the particles are captured ... pressure feed tends to deposit the debris ON the surface (using dirt to filter dirt) while vacuum feed draws the particles deep into the filter media hence plugging it faster. If you use stainless tube with double flared connections then consider a pressure feed system. Boat manufacturers being cheap use soft copper tube with compression fittings ... that usuallly loosen with vibration and age. Also copper is CONTRAINDICATED for use with (long term storage) diesel fuel --- promotes decomposition. .
In article <1147027123.244712.203410@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Skip Gundlach <SkipGundlach@gmail.com> wrote:
As I work my way back from the bow (the bulkhead forward of the> saloon), being almost finished in there, my thoughts turn to what's> ahead (or behind/astern, as you prefer).>
I succeeded in buying a second Racor on eBay, and two mounted 2-way> valves at a flea market, but would prefer to not have to reinvent the> wheel, as I'm sure there are many here who have done it already.>
I considered an already-built dual system, a standard Racor part> number, but it was prohibitively expensive. Theirs, of course, has a> single valve which controls all functions, and a vacuum guage.>
Can anyone point me to how to make two separate filters set up in> parallel with the least amount of fuss about it?>
Thanks.>
Skip>
Morgan 461 #2> SV Flying Pig KI4MPC> http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we> bought her>
"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely> nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,> messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.> In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,> that's the charm of it.> Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your> destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never> get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in> particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to> do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not.">
Dont use 3 way (or 4 way) valves in a fuel system. Such valves are subject to 'cross port leakage' due to the contaminents in diesel fuel oil .... sulphur + H2O = sulfonic acid which eats/etches most polished valve faces. With cross port leakage you can't open up the 'other side of the block/bypass without leakage. Use single valves instead; two valves - one on EACH side of the filter housing; bring both branches together with Tees.
In article <llu7g.21455$iF3.20121@dukeread01>, Glenn Ashmore <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:
I don't have a current picture but basically I took a pair of 500FG and > mounted them on a board. The one on the right was turned to face backwards > so both of the "in" ports faced each other. There is a three way 3/8" NPT > valve between these two ports with an SAE adapter. Center goes to the day > tank and the outputs go to the Racor "in" ports. Then on the outsides I > came from the "out" ports with an SAE to NPT elbow to a 2" nipple. Then a > NPT to Swagelok elbow and a short length of stainless tube to the second 3 > way valve. The center port of this valve goes to the engine. I set the > valve handles so that they both point to the active filter.>
Theoretically the procedure to change elements is (assuming you have a > couple of paper towels to catch the drips and clean up and you have either > gravity feed or a small fuel pump at the tank. )> 1. Drain the crud out of the bowl of the current filter.> 2. Turn both valves to the new filter,> 3. Crack open the top of the filter to be changed and drain the contents > into a container.> 4. Replace the old element and refill with the fuel you drained in step 3.> 5. Replace the lid but leave it slightly loose.> 6. Switch back to the original filter.> 7. Tighten the lid as soon as you see a little fuel start to come out of the > top.>
This is not the recommended procedure because Racor recommends that the > filters be in slight vacuum rather than pressure but it works. If your set > up has the engine pull the fuel so that the filters stay in slight vacuum, > refill the filter with additional fuel within about 1/8" from the top and > close the lid tightly. This small amount of air will remain at the top of > the filter and away from the out port.>
All of the parts are available on eBay but the SAE fittings. They are like > hydraulic fittings but not quite and they ain't cheap.
Parallel filoter while intuitively a good thought rarely work on a boat in practice. A high particle challenge situation that 'slug' one filter will sequentially 'slug the second filter. It is VASTLY more efficient to run a recirculation / polishing system INDEPENDENT of the in line fuel deliver line as a high turn over recirculation filter will VASTLY 'turn the tank over' much quicker )3-4 gallones per minute) than an in-line filter (1 gallon per hour average). The advantage being FASTER tank recovery back to 'normal' particle background .... using a filter retention of approx 10 times the retention of the final filter in the direct feed system. A 'techy' would call this the laws of exponential decay PLUS the 10X retention filter does have an efficiency (although low) at much smaller than the 'rating'. Since you 'turn-over' so much faster though the larger retention filter (with 10X lower flow resistance) the net result is VERY fast clean up of the tank contents.
Send me an email at RhmpL33(AT)att(DOT)net for a sketch of my filtration train ( independent recirc. plus blocked and bypassed dual parallel direct line filters .... plus on-line reserve (emergency) day tank. The day tank is a gravity feed 3 gallon 'storage' medium for clean fuel ... so that if all hell breaks loose I can simply switch it IN to the direct feed line and run for several hours .... and dont have to worry about changing the diaphragm in the lift pump, could care less about changing racors, etc. etc. etc. until 'things settle down'. I dont know about you but usually a heavy sea state will knock crap loose in a tank ... and thats NOT the time to go below and screw around with 'filters' - when the sea is running hard, if I put my head into the bilge for any length of time ... I power -puke.
I recently completed the installation of two racor filters. It took 8 shut off valves. I can draw either filter from either (of the two) fuel tanks. I can select filter and tanks while running. Haven't tried to change a filter while running yet.
Skip Gundlach wrote:> As I work my way back from the bow (the bulkhead forward of the> saloon), being almost finished in there, my thoughts turn to what's> ahead (or behind/astern, as you prefer).>
I succeeded in buying a second Racor on eBay, and two mounted 2-way> valves at a flea market, but would prefer to not have to reinvent the> wheel, as I'm sure there are many here who have done it already.>
I considered an already-built dual system, a standard Racor part> number, but it was prohibitively expensive. Theirs, of course, has a> single valve which controls all functions, and a vacuum guage.>
Can anyone point me to how to make two separate filters set up in> parallel with the least amount of fuss about it?>
Thanks.>
Skip>
Morgan 461 #2> SV Flying Pig KI4MPC> http://tinyurl.com/p7rb4 - NOTE:new URL! The vessel as Tehamana, as we> bought her>
"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely> nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,> messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.> In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,> that's the charm of it.> Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your> destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never> get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in> particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to> do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not.">
Skip -
Whatever you do, remember that you are going to be messing with the valves after being awakened from a deep sleep by a crewmember who is not certain which of the valves to turn... and in the middle of the night, in a seaway, you may not either - especially when the engine is stuttering. It is certainly true that with a pump or two and 10 or more valves, you can set up for almost anything. But will you get it right in the middle of the night? Years after you designed the system?
"Complexity is the enemy of Reliability" - Salnick's First Law
On Tue, 09 May 2006 13:17:35 -0700, RW Salnick <salnick@no.spam.salnick.com> wrote:
It is certainly true that with a pump or two and 10 or more >valves, you can set up for almost anything. But will you get it right >in the middle of the night? Years after you designed the system?
Good points. Speaking from personal experience, it is very easy to open or close the wrong valve in the heat of battle (big seas, sputtering engine, etc.). That is a bad time to accidently introduce air into the fuel system. Don't ask me how I know.
In addition to keeping things simple and intuitive, it is important to rigorously follow a tried and true procedure so that no ad libbing is required. It is also worthwhile to invest in a nice set of engraved, color coded labels for non-obvious valve positions.
That is why I used only two 3 way valves. When the engine starts sputtering you open a little access hatch under the helmsman and turn them the opposite direction they are in. Then you can change filters at your leisure. Even if over time the diesel etches the valve surfaces the leakage between filters will be minimal and not effect their operation.
There are 3 other valves below deck that allow bypassing the day tank and drawing directly from the port or starboard storage tanks but they are clearly marked and only needed if the low fuel alarm on the day tank or the transfer pump fails.
The day tank holds 24 hours of fuel at normal cruise. All fuel entering the day tank goes through a pair of 1000FG filters with 10 micron filters and water sensors in the bowls so all the fuel is filtered rather than a recirculating polishing system that filters the same fuel over and over.
Now for the complicated part: I programmed a microprocessor to track the gallons drawn from each storage tank and the content of the day tank but it has nothing to do with the ability to transfer fuel. If it gets fried the only thing important I loose is the low fuel alarm on the day tank.
"Wayne.B" <waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com> wrote in message newsqu162t11d3r0o6j5l4okt8bla2tdlv3he@4ax.com...> On Tue, 09 May 2006 13:17:35 -0700, RW Salnick> <salnick@no.spam.salnick.com> wrote:>
It is certainly true that with a pump or two and 10 or more>>valves, you can set up for almost anything. But will you get it right>>in the middle of the night? Years after you designed the system?>
Good points. Speaking from personal experience, it is very easy to> open or close the wrong valve in the heat of battle (big seas,> sputtering engine, etc.). That is a bad time to accidently introduce> air into the fuel system. Don't ask me how I know. >
In addition to keeping things simple and intuitive, it is important to> rigorously follow a tried and true procedure so that no ad libbing is> required. It is also worthwhile to invest in a nice set of engraved,> color coded labels for non-obvious valve positions.>
I too worry about this. I started wanting to put all the valves in row, numbered. With a set of codes for different senarios. (1off, 2off, 3on, 4on) etc. But I went with a series of "H" paterns that let you trace the open valves with your finger. I hope this works out in the end. - Allen
That's what I like about what I did. To change filters from the same tank, one valve, if you want to isolate the restricted filter, two valves. If you want to change tanks and go to the other filter, 6 valves.
On Tue, 9 May 2006 17:35:54 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore" <gashmore@cox.net> wrote:
The day tank holds 24 hours of fuel at normal cruise. All fuel entering the >day tank goes through a pair of 1000FG filters with 10 micron filters and >water sensors in the bowls so all the fuel is filtered rather than a >recirculating polishing system that filters the same fuel over and over.
I would argue for using 2 micron filters. Get the crud out at the earliest possible point in the system. 1000FGs should last almost forever feeding a sailboat engine. I have them out in front of a pair of Detroit 671s and they are typically good for 500 to 1000 gallons between element changes (2 micron filters).
I have to reiterate based on over 30 years of filtration engineering experience: If you are in need to screw around with filters then you havent done your proper maintenance by periodically opening and cleaning out the fuel tank .... gums, goos, and incomplete polymerizations of 'old dead fuel'. A filter is simply NOT a substitute for proper and routine tank maintenance.
A 2 micrometer filter in an in line filter train is simply gross overkill that will eventually and needlessly fatigue the diaphragm of your mechanical lift pump. You simply CAN NOT substitute the same size (surface area) filter from a 15ВµM to a 2ВµM filter without adjusting for the opering differential pressure across such filters. Filters are sized according to flow rate vs. operating differential pressure - get the technical specs from the manufacture before you 'intuitively' screw arround and make a needless & complicated 'mess'. A 2ВµM filter will demand approx. 7X the surface area to remain at the same operating differential pressure of a 15ВµM. The service life penalty is about 25:1 without adjusting for increased surface area (the permeability of a 2ВµM is about 7X LESS than a 15ВµM). 15-20ВµM being 'the most damaging (hard) particle for an internal combustion engine. Most particles found in fouled fuel oil tanks are typically agglomerated (stuck together) very small particles that when trapped on a filter media and subjected to large pressure differences across a filter, simply 'extrude' deeper into the filter media (thus blocking it) or simply extrude all the way through. these 'particles' are the gums, etc. that dont burn very well and pass through the combustion chamber only to 'coke' in hot exhaust manifold or water injection elbow. Filtration is NOT the solution; constant maintenance (cleaning the tank) and only using FRESH fuel is the obvious solution. High usage of filters with fuel oil is a SYMPTOM. A blocked filter is telling you you have a dirty/fouled tank.
BTW I run an independent constant recirculation polishing loop @ 5-10ВµM @ ~3 GPM and the inline delivery system only needs a (properly sized) 2ВµM followed by a grossly undersized 2ВµM 'choke' filter. All the 'work' is accomplished by the CHEAP recirculation/polishing filter elements. The system works so well that I am removing all the complicated in line parallel filters, valves, etc. etc. I do clean out the tank every other year. I NEVER fill the tank unless I NEED that much oil. Condensation (water -oil phase equilibrium, actually) uptake of water is NEVER a problem as I use a desiccant vapor trap on the vent. I only have onboard what I need and a little for reserve. I never buy from a marina and usually haul in the oil from a truck stop (cheaper and FRESHER). Fresh oil is important as in summer condition diesel only last about 6 months before it begins to 'particulate', etc. (I dont pay for my filter elements and professionaly "Im supposed to be a 'filter expert"). Filters are NOT teeny screen doors, there's much more to filters than retention rating ( & most 'ratings' are arbitrary BS).
In article <pqu162t11d3r0o6j5l4okt8bla2tdlv3he@4ax.com>, Wayne.B <waynebatrecdotboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 09 May 2006 13:17:35 -0700, RW Salnick> <salnick@no.spam.salnick.com> wrote:>
It is certainly true that with a pump or two and 10 or more > >valves, you can set up for almost anything. But will you get it right > >in the middle of the night? Years after you designed the system?>
Good points. Speaking from personal experience, it is very easy to> open or close the wrong valve in the heat of battle (big seas,> sputtering engine, etc.). That is a bad time to accidently introduce> air into the fuel system. Don't ask me how I know. >
In addition to keeping things simple and intuitive, it is important to> rigorously follow a tried and true procedure so that no ad libbing is> required. It is also worthwhile to invest in a nice set of engraved,> color coded labels for non-obvious valve positions.>
Sooo last trip I bought 5 new jerry cans went to the HESS station where there is most always a line for the diesel. The pump has a spin on filter at the hose. Went home topped off the tank, looked into the can and there were black flakes in the bottom. There is NO clean fuel. What is the racor 1000 rated to flow? I think my 500's can handle the one gallon / hour I need with a 2micron filter. The lift pump on my perkins is not hooked up I will have 2 walbro 6802's with 2 facet pumps mounted nearby as spares. Is there any downside to having more pressure feeding the injector pump. I think the pumps I have may go to 7psi? Tell me more about the "desiccant vapor trap on the vent" sounds like something my redundantly paranoid self needs. -Allen
bushman wrote:> Sooo last trip I bought 5 new jerry cans went to the HESS station where > there is most always a line for the diesel. The pump has a spin on filter at > the hose. Went home topped off the tank, looked into the can and there were > black flakes in the bottom. There is NO clean fuel.> What is the racor 1000 rated to flow? I think my 500's can handle the one > gallon / hour I need with a 2micron filter. The lift pump on my perkins is > not hooked up I will have 2 walbro 6802's with 2 facet pumps mounted nearby > as spares.> Is there any downside to having more pressure feeding the injector pump. I > think the pumps I have may go to 7psi?> Tell me more about the "desiccant vapor trap on the vent" sounds like > something my redundantly paranoid self needs.> -Allen
My understanding with the big Racors is that you need a healthy flow through them or the "turbine coalescing" action doesn't work. A tiny sailboat diesel probably doesn't flow enough for it to work that way. I'm sure most of the action is just in the filter elelment
