I noticed in the new WPA rules for 8-ball and 9-ball racking, after specifying 8 and corner balls/1 and 9 balls, it says...
"...The other balls will be placed randomly in the diamond which means without purposeful or intentional pattern."
I know that a 9-ball rack can be arranged in such a manner as to make things more difficult for your opponent to runout.
And I know that you can arrange an 8-ball rack so as to get a better spread of the ball groups around the table.
So I always rack my 9-ball racks the same way with specific numbers in specific spots (From Tucker - Racking Secrets).
And I always rack my 8-ball racks the same way with specific groups in specific spots (From - Jimmy Reid DVD - Getting best spread of ball groups rack or "racking properly" as I think he said.)
I feel that if only the one ball and nine ball/eight ball and corner balls locations are specified in the rules, then you should be free to place the other balls anywhere you want. (Including a "specific pattern".)
I feel that if only the one ball and nine ball/eight ball and corner balls> locations are specified in the rules, then you should be free to place the> other balls anywhere you want. (Including a "specific pattern".)
But the rules do specify more than the 1-ball, 9-ball and corner balls -- they specify that the other balls must be randomly placed. If you're saying that placement of the other balls should not be specified in any way, then what's your reason for that? I think they should be specified as random to avoid exactly what you do: engineer the rack to your advantage.
How to police that is another question. How can a referee tell when a rack is being engineered? How could random placement of the other balls be assured? Draw them from a hat as they're placed in a prescribed order (e.g., left to right, top to bottom)?
On Mon, 02 May 2005 15:50:08 GMT, Patrick Johnson <patrick.johnsonREMOVE@THIScomcast.net> wrote:
How to police that is another question. How can a referee tell when a >rack is being engineered?
I don't think you can police it. If you actually do have a referee, he can do what Patrick describes but how often do tournament matches have a referee except at the TV table? The player racking the balls is free to 'engineer' them in any way he wants and will claim they are random.
Why not go a step further and specify positions for all balls in the rack - especially 9-ball? Then there's no argument.
I noticed in the new WPA rules for 8-ball and 9-ball racking,> after specifying 8 and corner balls/1 and 9 balls, it says...
They are rules I have proposed to the WPA. There are more steps before they might be adopted.
So I always rack my 9-ball racks the same way with specific> numbers in specific spots (From Tucker - Racking Secrets).
My opinion is that this is not within the present rules.
I feel that if only the one ball and nine ball/eight ball and> corner balls locations are specified in the rules, then you> should be free to place the other balls anywhere you want. > (Including a "specific pattern".)
The proposed rules imagine that the referee will rack. They have no provision for play without a referee.
My opinion is that this is not within the present rules.>
I'm not sure this is exactly what you're getting at, but Rule 5.2 (for 9-Ball) in both the current BCA Rules and the current WPA Rules states that, other than the 1 and 9, the remaining balls are to be racked RANDOMLY. However, Rule 4.3 (for 8-Ball) in both the current BCA Rules and the current WPA Rules does NOT state that, other than the 8 and the corner balls, they must be random.
So, I guess you are allowed to rack patterns in 8-Ball but are NOT allowed to "stack" the rack in 9-Ball in BCA/WPA play.
I think this makes the most sense. The trouble is to agree on an order to be stipulated in the rules. I propose: 7 & 8 behind the 1 (for spots), 2 & 3 behind the 9, 4 & 5 as wing balls, in each case with the lower number on the racker's left, and the 6 in the back.
Jim Eales
"David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message news:427653ca.4998562@news3.prserv.net...> On Mon, 02 May 2005 15:50:08 GMT, Patrick Johnson> <patrick.johnsonREMOVE@THIScomcast.net> wrote:>
How to police that is another question. How can a referee tell when a>>rack is being engineered?>
I don't think you can police it. If you actually do have a referee, he> can do what Patrick describes but how often do tournament matches have> a referee except at the TV table? The player racking the balls is free> to 'engineer' them in any way he wants and will claim they are random.>
Why not go a step further and specify positions for all balls in the> rack - especially 9-ball? Then there's no argument.>
On Tue, 3 May 2005 08:34:17 -0500, "Jim Eales" <eales@nospampurdue.edu> wrote:
I think this makes the most sense. The trouble is to agree on an order to >be stipulated in the rules. I propose: 7 & 8 behind the 1 (for spots), 2 & >3 behind the 9, 4 & 5 as wing balls, in each case with the lower number on >the racker's left, and the 6 in the back.
Sounds logical.... are you sure you're a pool player?
1. Since the vast majority (99.9%, IMHO) of matches are played> without a referee, shouldn't the rules make provision for play> without a referee?
I already proposed a solution for this, but people seemed not to like it.
... The Steve Tipton approach of racking always in the same> order should eliminate that problem.
Well, yes, but, I'm not willing to try to make that large a change from the present rules. And if so, what order? Counting order is the easiest to remember. 1-2-3-4-9-5-6-7-8.
What about specifying an order if a referee racks, and allowing> the racker to pick the order in non-refereed matches (or maybe> saying that the players may agree that racker picks when> there's no ref?)
Sounds good to me, but I bet that any order I come up with will irritate someone.
On Wed, 4 May 2005 08:23:43 -0500, "Jim Eales" <eales@nospampurdue.edu> wrote:
I was taught to rack any spotted balls behind the 1.
I've had players in my VNEA league more than once tell me I couldn't rack 2 stripes/solids together in the row directly behind the 8-ball and ask me to change them. I have to pull out my rule book and tell them I sure as hell can...
Random is supposed to be random. Wonder where that oddity came from? I think someone may have taught them that you have to alternate stripes and solids or something...
I was taught to rack any spotted balls behind the 1.>
"David Malone" Responded
I've had players in my VNEA league more than once tell me I couldn't> rack 2 stripes/solids together in the row directly behind the 8-ball> and ask me to change them. I have to pull out my rule book and tell> them I sure as hell can...>
Random is supposed to be random. Wonder where that oddity came from? I> think someone may have taught them that you have to alternate stripes> and solids or something...>
I think Jim is referring to spotting balls in 9 ball. If I'm giving you the wild 8, then I would rack the 8 in one of the two positions directly behind the 1, because supposedly these balls will make it to a pocket less frequently than any of the other positions. IMO this isn't necessarily so and you may have to make note of which balls go and don't go on the break. I have seen match-ups where the spottor would racked the spotted ball in one of the two positions behind the 9.
Billy Bob wrote:> Thought it would be best to discuss this here...>
I noticed in the new WPA rules for 8-ball and 9-ball racking, after> specifying 8 and corner balls/1 and 9 balls, it says...>
"...The other balls will be placed randomly in the diamond which means> without purposeful or intentional pattern."
....> I feel that if only the one ball and nine ball/eight ball and corner balls> locations are specified in the rules, then you should be free to place the> other balls anywhere you want. (Including a "specific pattern".)>
Comments?
I agree. If you think you have a better method than me, then go for it, if not, you are free to change to my method and vice versa. That's pretty much how it is any way, in the real world. Rules should be fair and avoid provoking fights, and accusing someone of not randomly placing balls in a rack would be fun... hey, every time you rack the 2 ball is in the second row, or the bottom of the rack... you're cheating... no I'm not, yes you are.... WHAP!
Your way, placing them where you want, allows anyone to use whatever method they "think" is best... Requiring a specific order is bad because it's enough trouble to get everyone locating the one ball and nine ball/eight ball and corner balls correctly. In a tournament, with an official racker, then, I would like the same rack for everyone, and that could be whatever the racker, or the players decide upon.
A true random rack, or number, or anything is very hard to find. To do it would require markings on the random balls to appear AFTER the rack is made. Much simpler just to let both players use the most diabolical order they can come up with...
I think some people believe it more "fair" if there are different groups deep in the pack. VNEA just says different groups on the corners IIRC.
Mark0
=== "David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message news:4278d65b.74567000@news3.prserv.net...> On Wed, 4 May 2005 08:23:43 -0500, "Jim Eales"> <eales@nospampurdue.edu> wrote:>
I was taught to rack any spotted balls behind the 1.>
I've had players in my VNEA league more than once tell me I couldn't> rack 2 stripes/solids together in the row directly behind the 8-ball> and ask me to change them. I have to pull out my rule book and tell> them I sure as hell can...>
Random is supposed to be random. Wonder where that oddity came from? I> think someone may have taught them that you have to alternate stripes> and solids or something...>
A few opponents made him change them. The others left it as is. Shane is a pretty decent player. I have to think that he felt this rack (solid on the head, three solids on each corner) gave him some advantage but I can't see what it would be and, if it was an advantage, why so many opponents let it be even though I believe it's an illegal rack. He did win the tourney so maybe he does know something I don't. Naaah, that can't be it.
Mark0 wrote:
I think some people believe it more "fair" if there are different groups> deep in the pack. VNEA just says different groups on the corners IIRC.>
Mark0>
===> "David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message> news:4278d65b.74567000@news3.prserv.net...>
On Wed, 4 May 2005 08:23:43 -0500, "Jim Eales">><eales@nospampurdue.edu> wrote:>>
I was taught to rack any spotted balls behind the 1.>>>
I've had players in my VNEA league more than once tell me I couldn't>>rack 2 stripes/solids together in the row directly behind the 8-ball>>and ask me to change them. I have to pull out my rule book and tell>>them I sure as hell can...>>
Random is supposed to be random. Wonder where that oddity came from? I>>think someone may have taught them that you have to alternate stripes>>and solids or something...>>
Originally posted by: charles@here.net At a recent 8 ball tourney I saw Shane Van Boening consistently rack like this: START( %AN7O5%BK7Q3%CK7M6%DJ6N2%EJ6P7%FJ4Q9%GJ5L9%HL8O4%IM7N8%JL8N2 %KK7P0%LK8N8%MN0P2%NL9P7%OJ6O4%Pg9V9 )END A few opponents made him change them. The others left it as is. Shane is a pretty decent player. I have to think that he felt this rack (solid on the head, three solids on each corner) gave him some advantage but I can't see what it would be and, if it was an advantage, why so many opponents let it be even though I believe it's an illegal rack. He did win the tourney so maybe he does know something I don't. Naaah, that can't be it. I ran accross this forum and thought that I would write a quick note, especially on the above quote. I know Shane quite well, although I don't see him play 8-ball much (due to the fact that we always play 9ball), but I think I get the rack you are saying. Although if there was no stipe in a corner, it would be an illegal rack. The next time that you are playing by yourself, be it 8ball or 9ball. Pay attention to your rack and make sure you rack the same way each time (both in the order of the balls and the place on the spot you rack) Try breaking at a consistent speed, especially in 9-ball, where you should be breaking from a side rail and trying to pocket the one in the side. If you watch the balls, on a consistent rack, with a consistent break, the patterns will amaze you. This is pretty easy to do when playing by yourself. Shanes rack (and I'm just guessing) was probably meant to make for a difficult run out. Maybe it only increases his chance of getting to the table by 2 or 3%, but that can be the difference between 4th place and 1st place, one time at the table.
