The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking... Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who was the best defensive first baseman of all time?
"LABlogger" (lablogger@hotmail.com) writes:> The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...> Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who was> the best defensive first baseman of all time?
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably the greatest defensive player of all time, period. -- Corby Gilmore corby@ncf.ca
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend 14 March 2005 22:13:55 [ permanent link ]
Corby Gilmore wrote:> "LABlogger" (lablogger@hotmail.com) writes:> > The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...> > Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who
the best defensive first baseman of all time?>
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is
head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is
arguably> the greatest defensive player of all time, period.
Now that is nonsense. 1B is an easy position to play. The greatest defensive first baseman of all time is still not as valuable a fielder as just a pretty good shortstop.
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he> head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably> the greatest defensive player of all time, period.
How did he change the way the position was played? (I'm not asking confrontationally but out of curiosity).
Catch you later. --Robert Machemer
-- Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | "For each time he falls, he shall Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!" IF1, IF3, IF9: best films, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha) (What are YOU doing this weekend? See IF12 on May 23rd, 2004)
In article <d14grb$ant$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>, ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) wrote:
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he> head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably> the greatest defensive player of all time, period.
Considering that they still put sluggers at first base, even if they field like Frank Thomas, in what possible sense of the expression did Hernandez "change the way that the position is played"?
In article <1110772394.678854.40620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "LABlogger" <lablogger@hotmail.com> wrote:
The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...> Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who was> the best defensive first baseman of all time?
They say that Hal Chase was a pretty fair defensive first baseman when he wasn't too busy throwing games.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:41:45 -0500, Hank Gillette <hankgillette@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <d14grb$ant$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>,> ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) wrote:>
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he>> head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably>> the greatest defensive player of all time, period.>
Considering that they still put sluggers at first base, even if they >field like Frank Thomas, in what possible sense of the expression did >Hernandez "change the way that the position is played"?
He convinced people that putting a glove-man at first created a hole in the offense.
Peter Lawrence 14 March 2005 23:20:02 [ permanent link ]
Corby Gilmore wrote:> "LABlogger" (lablogger@hotmail.com) writes:> > The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...> > Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who> > was the best defensive first baseman of all time?>
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he> head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is> arguably the greatest defensive player of all time, period.
I've seen both Hernandez and J.T. Snow play, and defensively I feel J.T. Snow is just as great a fielder that Hernandez was. If fact it's only because of J.T.'s great defensive skills that he still has a major league job.
The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...>>Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who was>>the best defensive first baseman of all time?>
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he> head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably> the greatest defensive player of all time, period.
Corby Gilmore wrote:> > The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...> > Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who> > was the best defensive first baseman of all time?>
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is> he head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is> arguably the greatest defensive player of all time, period.
Overall, that's a ridiculous statement, of course, but players like Hernandez did demonstrate that a good defensive first baseman was a greater benefit than long thought.
In article <d14omb$arp0$1@news.swt.edu>, GTanner <tanner@nospam.nospam> wrote:
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he> > head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably> > the greatest defensive player of all time, period.>
In article <giob319o4aj1qh3upojc82ql8tsbgeelc9@4ax.com>, Bob Roman <robertjroman@hotmail.com> wrote:>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:41:45 -0500, Hank Gillette><hankgillette@yahoo.com> wrote:>
In article <d14grb$ant$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>,>> ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) wrote:>>
Hernandez changed the way that the position is played. Not only is he>>> head and shoulders the greatest defensive 1B of all time, he is arguably>>> the greatest defensive player of all time, period.>>
Considering that they still put sluggers at first base, even if they >>field like Frank Thomas, in what possible sense of the expression did >>Hernandez "change the way that the position is played"?>
He convinced people that putting a glove-man at first created a hole>in the offense.
The thread on Keith Hernandez's HOF credentials got me thinking...>> Usually, we look at a first baseman as a power position. But who was>> the best defensive first baseman of all time?>
They say that Hal Chase was a pretty fair defensive first baseman when >he wasn't too busy throwing games.
That's understating the matter quite a bit. He just blew people away.
To the point where both Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson named him to their all-time teams.
Ruth on picking Chase. "[some people] will feel that I should pick Lou Gehrig over Chase, (but Chase) was so much better than anyone else that I ever saw on first base that - to me - it was no contest."
They say that Hal Chase was a pretty fair defensive first baseman when >>he wasn't too busy throwing games.
That's understating the matter quite a bit. He just blew people away.
Bill James commented that when he looked at old newspaper clippings it was easier to document Hal Chase's defense than Ty Cobb's temper or Walter Johnson's fastball. OTOH, the defensive statistics don't support his reputation. His career RF was only a bit above league average, his career F% was a hair below league average, and advanced metrics like James's Fielding Win Shares and BP's RAA don't rate him as anything special. I think that he's just another example of style over substance; he looked great while fielding so everyone assumed that he must be great.
-- Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (raj@alumni.caltech.edu) I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
Roger Moore wrote:> Bill James commented that when he looked at old newspaper clippings> it was easier to document Hal Chase's defense than Ty Cobb's temper> or Walter Johnson's fastball. OTOH, the defensive statistics don't> support his reputation. His career RF was only a bit above league> average, his career F% was a hair below league average, and advanced> metrics like James's Fielding Win Shares and BP's RAA don't rate him> as anything special. I think that he's just another example of style> over substance; he looked great while fielding so everyone assumed> that he must be great.
Either that or stats are faulty (read: incomplete, don't tell the full story) to begin with.
Roger Moore wrote:>> Bill James commented that when he looked at old newspaper clippings>> it was easier to document Hal Chase's defense than Ty Cobb's temper>> or Walter Johnson's fastball. OTOH, the defensive statistics don't>> support his reputation. His career RF was only a bit above league>> average, his career F% was a hair below league average, and advanced>> metrics like James's Fielding Win Shares and BP's RAA don't rate him>> as anything special. I think that he's just another example of style>> over substance; he looked great while fielding so everyone assumed>> that he must be great.>
Either that or stats are faulty (read: incomplete, don't tell the full>story) to begin with.
Or that while he was truly great defensively when he tried, he threw so many games that his overall stats aren't special.
Roger Moore wrote:>>> Bill James commented that when he looked at old newspaper clippings>>> it was easier to document Hal Chase's defense than Ty Cobb's temper>>> or Walter Johnson's fastball. OTOH, the defensive statistics don't>>> support his reputation. His career RF was only a bit above league>>> average, his career F% was a hair below league average, and advanced>>> metrics like James's Fielding Win Shares and BP's RAA don't rate him>>> as anything special. I think that he's just another example of style>>> over substance; he looked great while fielding so everyone assumed>>> that he must be great.>>
Either that or stats are faulty (read: incomplete, don't tell the full>>story) to begin with.>
Or that while he was truly great defensively when he tried, he threw>so many games that his overall stats aren't special.
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend 16 March 2005 10:17:36 [ permanent link ]
Bubba wrote:> For awhile in the '80s, Garvey had the highest lifetime fielding percentage> of all time at first. Not sure if someone like Mattingly or Hernandez passed> him after Garvey hung em up.
I bet garvey has the highest fielding average of all time at first. In 84 he played in 159 games and didn't make a single error. I realize fielding average isn't all that important but that's still impressive.
Roger Moore wrote:>>> His career RF was only a bit above league>>> average, his career F% was a hair below league average, and advanced>>> metrics like James's Fielding Win Shares and BP's RAA don't rate him>>> as anything special. I think that he's just another example of style>>> over substance; he looked great while fielding so everyone assumed>>> that he must be great.>>
Either that or stats are faulty (read: incomplete, don't tell the full>>story) to begin with.>
Or that while he was truly great defensively when he tried, he threw>so many games that his overall stats aren't special.
Or he was spectacular but unsteady. For one thing, he dropped a lot of throws, even when he wasn't trying to.
