What would be the three values most representative of a sabermetric triple crown. I suppose OBP and SLG (or ISO) would be two, but what about the third?
Richard Gadsden 11 March 2005 16:00:00 [ permanent link ]
In article <d0rsj5$dqs$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk> on Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:40:36 -0000, leeh@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk (Lee Harris) wrote:
What would be the three values most representative of a sabermetric > triple> crown. I suppose OBP and SLG (or ISO) would be two, but what about the> third?
You want a counting stat in there as well. Possibly two. TOB would be one, but that relates too strongly to OBP - you don't really need both.
The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would probably be OBP, XBH and HR.
-- Richard Gadsden "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire
"Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote in message news:KdgYd.27087$fW4.863100@news20.bellglobal.com...> Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled:>
The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would> > probably be OBP, XBH and HR.>
OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to> hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP> is a bogus stat.>
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.>
cordially, as always,>
rm
you're wrong, of course. and possibly in need of therapy.
"Richard Gadsden" <richard@gadsden.name> wrote in message news:memo.20050311120038.2300A@tg001a0001.blueyonder.co.uk...> In article <d0rsj5$dqs$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk> on Fri, 11 Mar 2005> 10:40:36 -0000, leeh@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk (Lee Harris) wrote:>
What would be the three values most representative of a sabermetric> > triple> > crown. I suppose OBP and SLG (or ISO) would be two, but what about the> > third?>
You want a counting stat in there as well. Possibly two. TOB would be> one, but that relates too strongly to OBP - you don't really need both.>
The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would probably be> OBP, XBH and HR.>
I'm a bit worried that SLG/ISO ties in too much to the HRs and XBHs, kind of like repeating yourself. I'd hate to use RBI's unless they could be adjusted to account for opportunity, situation, and the team around you
Bryan S . Slick 11 March 2005 17:01:02 [ permanent link ]
[Lee Harris (leeh@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk)] [Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:50:40 -0000]
: :"Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote in message :news:KdgYd.27087$fW4.863100@news20.bellglobal.com... :> Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled: :> :> > The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would :> > probably be OBP, XBH and HR. :> :> OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to :> hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP :> is a bogus stat. :> :> The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers. :> :> cordially, as always, :> :> rm : :you're wrong, of course. and possibly in need of therapy.
It's not as if he could resist posting to this thread. I'm only surprised that he didn't use his "stat fan" phrase, which he seems to think is a most dreadful insult. Heh. What a moron.
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
Lee Harris wrote:> "Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote in message> news:KdgYd.27087$fW4.863100@news20.bellglobal.com...>
Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled:>>
The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would>>>probably be OBP, XBH and HR.>>
OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to>>hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP>>is a bogus stat.>>
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.>>
cordially, as always,>>
you're wrong, of course. and possibly in need of therapy.>
If HRs are such a good thing, then why would we subtract them from the all-important runs-produced stat, RBI+R-HR? Given the same # of RBI and R, it seems like having them through HRs is bad (kidding around, of course)
"Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:39dnd4F61a7rcU1@individual.net...> Lee Harris wrote:> > "Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote in message> > news:KdgYd.27087$fW4.863100@news20.bellglobal.com...> >
Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled:> >>
The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would> >>>probably be OBP, XBH and HR.> >>
OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to> >>hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP> >>is a bogus stat.> >>
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.> >>
cordially, as always,> >>
you're wrong, of course. and possibly in need of therapy.> >
If HRs are such a good thing, then why would we subtract them from the> all-important runs-produced stat, RBI+R-HR? Given the same # of RBI and> R, it seems like having them through HRs is bad (kidding around, of> course)
I was going to ask why he thought HRs were a good stat if you already had R and RBI, but thought better of it. It's not like he is on the same planet as everyone else anyway
Bryan S. Slick wrote:> :> The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.> :> :you're wrong, of course. and possibly in need of therapy.>
It's not as if he could resist posting to this thread. I'm only > surprised that he didn't use his "stat fan" phrase, which he seems to > think is a most dreadful insult. Heh. What a moron.
No kidding. As soon as I saw the subject line I heard the bell ringing and looked and, sure enough, there was his response. Sometimes, though, I think he makes this stuff up as he goes along. I suspect he's someone who used to get beat up alot in school as a kid.
Richard Gadsden 11 March 2005 22:00:00 [ permanent link ]
In article <d0s49e$flq$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk> on Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:51:56 -0000, leeh@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk (Lee Harris) wrote:
"Richard Gadsden" <richard@gadsden.name> wrote in message> news:memo.20050311120038.2300A@tg001a0001.blueyonder.co.uk...> > In article <d0rsj5$dqs$1@iss-nntp.leeds.ac.uk> on Fri, 11 Mar 2005> > 10:40:36 -0000, leeh@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk (Lee Harris) wrote:> >
What would be the three values most representative of a sabermetric> > > triple crown. I suppose OBP and SLG (or ISO) would be two, but what > > > about the third?> >
You want a counting stat in there as well. Possibly two. TOB would > > be one, but that relates too strongly to OBP - you don't really need > > both.> >
The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would probably be> > OBP, XBH and HR.> >
I'm a bit worried that SLG/ISO ties in too much to the HRs and XBHs, > kind of like repeating yourself. I'd hate to use RBI's unless they could> be adjusted to account for opportunity, situation, and the team around> you
XBH is a kind-of stand-in for RBIs, HRs are pretty much unchanged, as they're a TTO (and therefore are not situational, unlike other runs), and OBP replaces BA.
Essentially, the three questions that the original covers are "does he get on base?", "can he drive people in?" and "does he hit homers too?"
XBH is about whether a player, if played in the right place in the line-up, could drive people in. TB would address the same sort of question in a different way.
Of course, a real sabermetrician would want to address park and league factors in both rate and counting stats.
My inclination would be something like OBP+, SLG+ and a counting stat to look at the ability to play lots of times, like TOB. [A pure playing-time stat like PA would mean that a great hitter who plays 140 games loses out to an gloveman who plays 162 - especially as the hitter might get defensively replaced].
I appreciate that OBP and SLG effectively count BA twice (OBP is BA+walks, SLG is BA+XBH), but that's where the singles get counted as better than the walks - singles add into SLG and walks don't.
-- Richard Gadsden "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.
Who is the greatest hitter then? Aaron? Or does he become 'the most important stat'er or something?
Catch you later. --Robert Machemer
-- Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | "For each time he falls, he shall Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!" IF1, IF3, IF9: best films, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha) (What are YOU doing this weekend? See IF12 on May 23rd, 2004)
No kidding. As soon as I saw the subject line I heard the bell ringing> and looked and, sure enough, there was [RLM's] response. Sometimes,> though, I think he makes this stuff up as he goes along. I suspect> he's someone who used to get beat up alot in school as a kid.
Bryan S . Slick 12 March 2005 02:57:43 [ permanent link ]
[Chris Cathcart (cathcacrREVOLMAPS@yahoo.com)] [Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:48:39 GMT]
: :"Bob-Nob" <rpmachemer@note.SPamherstAM.edu> wrote in message :news:4231f71f@amhnt2.amherst.edu... :> > "Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote... :> :> <piggybacked> :> :> >> The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers. :> :> Who is the greatest hitter then? Aaron? Or does he become :> 'the most important stat'er or something? : :You're looking for logic in an ocean of trolldom.
While it's true that Maynard fits the generic description of a troll, I believe his trolling to be unintentional. He is so mind-numbingly stupid that he actually believes he's some lone crusader, striving against the tide, one day to emerge victorious as the true arbiter of what constitutes "true" fandom.
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:57:43 -0500, Bryan S. Slick <onyx_hokie@yahoo.com> wrote:
While it's true that Maynard fits the generic description of a troll, I >believe his trolling to be unintentional. He is so mind-numbingly >stupid that he actually believes he's some lone crusader, striving >against the tide, one day to emerge victorious as the true arbiter of >what constitutes "true" fandom.
Then why does he change identities to avoid killfiles? Why does he forge posts from people? Why is he inconsistent in his arguments? Who does he x-archive to avoid people pointing out his inconsistencies?
Bryan S . Slick 12 March 2005 06:48:10 [ permanent link ]
[Bob Roman (robertjroman@hotmail.com)] [Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:55:40 -0500]
:On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:57:43 -0500, Bryan S. Slick :<onyx_hokie@yahoo.com> wrote: : :>While it's true that Maynard fits the generic description of a troll, I :>believe his trolling to be unintentional. He is so mind-numbingly :>stupid that he actually believes he's some lone crusader, striving :>against the tide, one day to emerge victorious as the true arbiter of :>what constitutes "true" fandom. : :Then why does he change identities to avoid killfiles? :Why does he forge posts from people? :Why is he inconsistent in his arguments? :Who does he x-archive to avoid people pointing out his :inconsistencies?
Because he MUST be heard.. his cause is JUST.. he MUST educate us!
(He's a deluded halfwit, you know..)
-- Bryan S. Slick, onyx_hokie at yahoo dot com
"There ain't nothing wrong a few cold beers can't iron out in fact, you tell me just when and where, and I'll buy the first round"
"David Marc Nieporent" <nieporen@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message news:nieporen-6BBD42.03052312032005@individual.net...> In article <4231f71f@amhnt2.amherst.edu>,> rpmachemer@note.SPamherstAM.edu (Bob-Nob) wrote:> >> "Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote...>
<piggybacked>>
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.>
Who is the greatest hitter then? Aaron? Or does he become> >'the most important stat'er or something?>
Are you drunk? The greatest hitter is Rose because he has the greatest> number of hits. Everyone knows that.
Realto Margarino 12 March 2005 14:54:33 [ permanent link ]
Steve Grant <ACE1242@comcast.net> trolled:> "David Marc Nieporent" <nieporen@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message> news:nieporen-6BBD42.03052312032005@individual.net...>> In article <4231f71f@amhnt2.amherst.edu>,>> rpmachemer@note.SPamherstAM.edu (Bob-Nob) wrote:>> >> "Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote...>>
<piggybacked>>>
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.>>
Who is the greatest hitter then? Aaron? Or does he become>> >'the most important stat'er or something?>>
Are you drunk? The greatest hitter is Rose because he has the greatest>> number of hits. Everyone knows that.>
David Marc Nieporent venit, vidit, et dixit:> rpmachemer@note.SPamherstAM.edu (Bob-Nob) wrote:>>> "Realto Margarino" <rm@justlinux.nope.ca> wrote...
<piggybacked>
The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.
Who is the greatest hitter then? Aaron? Or does he become>> 'the most important stat'er or something?
Are you drunk? The greatest hitter is Rose because he has the greatest > number of hits. Everyone knows that.
I've certainly heard that, but if runs, RBIs, and HRs are the most important stats, then surely Aaron is more important than Rose, whether or not he is greater as a hitter. I was just curious as to Aaron's distinction.
Catch you later. --Robert Machemer
-- Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer | "For each time he falls, he shall Amherst College, Math & Classics | rise again, and woe to the wicked!" IF1, IF3, IF9: best films, cast | --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha) (What are YOU doing this weekend? See IF12 on May 23rd, 2004)
Brad Filippone 26 March 2005 17:01:25 [ permanent link ]
Realto Margarino (rm@justlinux.nope.ca) wrote: : Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled: : : > The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would : > probably be OBP, XBH and HR.
: OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to : hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP : is a bogus stat.
: The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.
Considering only those three, the third is redundant. A home run automatically produces at least one of both of the others.
Brad Filippone 26 March 2005 17:07:32 [ permanent link ]
Ben (bblankin@hotmail.com) wrote: : > Hey, he didn't say it was a _good_ stat. He said it was "important." : > Apparently, it is important because you have to substract it from R and RBI.
: it's published in the greatest number of sports pages, and is therefore : the greatest stat, by definition.
Going by that logic, Win and Loss stats for pitchers is actually meaningful. My favorite example: one of the absolute top pitchers of 1987 had a 8-16 record.
"Brad Filippone" <al019@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message news:d23mqk$f2d$7@News.Dal.Ca...> Ben (bblankin@hotmail.com) wrote:> : > Hey, he didn't say it was a _good_ stat. He said it was "important."> : > Apparently, it is important because you have to substract it from R and RBI.>
: it's published in the greatest number of sports pages, and is therefore> : the greatest stat, by definition.>
Going by that logic, Win and Loss stats for pitchers is actually> meaningful. My favorite example: one of the absolute top pitchers of> 1987 had a 8-16 record.
Realto Margarino 26 March 2005 17:42:10 [ permanent link ]
Brad Filippone <al019@chebucto.ns.ca> trolled:> Realto Margarino (rm@justlinux.nope.ca) wrote:> : Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled:> : > : > The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would> : > probably be OBP, XBH and HR.>
: OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to> : hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP> : is a bogus stat.>
: The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers.>
Considering only those three, the third is redundant. A home run> automatically produces at least one of both of the others.
A home run is one of the most exciting plays in baseball. That makes it one of the most important, by default.
cordially, as always,
rm _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Realto Margarino 26 March 2005 17:43:48 [ permanent link ]
Brad Filippone <al019@chebucto.ns.ca> trolled:> Ben (bblankin@hotmail.com) wrote:> : > Hey, he didn't say it was a _good_ stat. He said it was "important." > : > Apparently, it is important because you have to substract it from R and RBI.>
: it's published in the greatest number of sports pages, and is therefore > : the greatest stat, by definition.>
Going by that logic, Win and Loss stats for pitchers is actually> meaningful. My favorite example: one of the absolute top pitchers of> 1987 had a 8-16 record.
Why was he a "top pitcher?" In pitchers you look for success. It is the most successful teams, not the most efficient by stat fan criteria, that win the rings.
cordially, as always,
rm _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
Brad Filippone 27 March 2005 16:34:38 [ permanent link ]
Realto Margarino (rm@justlinux.nope.ca) wrote: : Brad Filippone <al019@chebucto.ns.ca> trolled: : > Realto Margarino (rm@justlinux.nope.ca) wrote: : > : Richard Gadsden <richard@gadsden.name> trolled: : > : : > : > The most direct equivalents to the traditional crown would : > : > probably be OBP, XBH and HR. : > : > : OBP includes walks. Sport fans know that walks are not equal to : > : hits, either in excitement or efficiency. Sport fans know that OBP : > : is a bogus stat. : > : > : The three most important stats are runs, rbi, homers. : > : > Considering only those three, the third is redundant. A home run : > automatically produces at least one of both of the others.
: A home run is one of the most exciting plays in baseball. That : makes it one of the most important, by default.
Yes, I agree, home runs can be exciting to watch. But we're talking about IMPORTANT stats. While the home run itself certainly has a degree of importance, the Runs it produces are more important.
For what it's worth, by the way, I think the most exciting thing about a home run is whether or not it will clear the wall. "Monster shots" aren't exciting because you KNOW they're over. I'd prefer a close play at the plate any day; mush more exciting.
Brad Filippone 27 March 2005 16:38:36 [ permanent link ]
Realto Margarino (rm@justlinux.nope.ca) wrote: : Brad Filippone <al019@chebucto.ns.ca> trolled: : > Ben (bblankin@hotmail.com) wrote: : > : > Hey, he didn't say it was a _good_ stat. He said it was "important." : > : > Apparently, it is important because you have to substract it from R and RBI. : > : > : it's published in the greatest number of sports pages, and is therefore : > : the greatest stat, by definition. : > : > Going by that logic, Win and Loss stats for pitchers is actually : > meaningful. My favorite example: one of the absolute top pitchers of : > 1987 had a 8-16 record.
: Why was he a "top pitcher?" In pitchers you look for success. It : is the most successful teams, not the most efficient by stat fan : criteria, that win the rings.
The player I'm referring to is Nolan Ryal. While he had a 8-16 record that year, he led the league in ERA with 2.76. Clearly he was successful at doing his job. The 8-16 record is a reflection on how poorly the rest of the team was at scoring runs.
Realto Margarino 27 March 2005 20:27:16 [ permanent link ]
Brad Filippone <al019@chebucto.ns.ca> trolled:
Yes, I agree, home runs can be exciting to watch. But we're> talking about IMPORTANT stats. While the home run itself> certainly has a degree of importance, the Runs it produces are> more important.
The most exciting plays are the most important plays. They are the most important because the most exciting plays are why a sport fan watches baseball.
For what it's worth, by the way, I think the most exciting thing> about a home run is whether or not it will clear the wall.> "Monster shots" aren't exciting because you KNOW they're over.> I'd prefer a close play at the plate any day; mush more exciting.
The most important homeruns are the most exciting. An in the park homerun is one of the most important plays in baseball.
cordially, as always,
rm _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
