Santo Screwed Again

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GYXU > Baseball > Santo Screwed Again 3 March 2005 21:44:31

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Santo Screwed Again
David The Nationals Fan 3 March 2005 21:44:31
	Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... no one put into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number of votes. Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would never put anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others who feel the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its two efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber player, isn't it time to disband this committee.
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Wunnuy 3 March 2005 00:30:30 [ permanent link ]
	David The Nationals Fan wrote:> Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... no one put> into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number of votes.> Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would never put> anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others who feel> the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its two> efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber player,> isn't it time to disband this committee. Pretty much. As long as HOFers have that attitude, the guys on that list will never be in. With that said, how the hell does Tony Oliva get in third place? He shouldn't be in the top ten, especially when Luis Tiant is 8th, which is ABSURD. And how does Roger Maris even get on the list?
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Kenny 3 March 2005 03:27:43 [ permanent link ]
	"David The Nationals Fan" <GoNats@nul.dev> wrote in message news:dSoVd.5286$DW.3333@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...> Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... no one > put into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number of > votes.> Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would never > put anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others who > feel the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its two > efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber > player, isn't it time to disband this committee. These guys are useless. Time to scrap the system and come up with something new. Kenny
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Corby Gilmore 3 March 2005 06:25:47 [ permanent link ]
	"Wunnuy" (wunnuy@netzero.net) writes:> David The Nationals Fan wrote:>> Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... no> one put>> into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number of> votes.>> Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would> never put>> anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others who> feel>> the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its two>> efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber> player,>> isn't it time to disband this committee.> Pretty much. As long as HOFers have that attitude, the guys on that> list will never be in.> With that said, how the hell does Tony Oliva get in third place? He> shouldn't be in the top ten, especially when Luis Tiant is 8th, which> is ABSURD. And how does Roger Maris even get on the list? Oliva is a 3-time AL batting champion, including 1964, his rookie year. He has a lifetime average of .304. His numbers would have been more impressive if not for the knee injuries that effectively ruined his career in 1971. As it is, I can understand his being considered. As for Roger Maris, check out his stats for 1961. That, for the most part, is why he is there. Maris was, effectively, the Brady Anderson of his day. Both were good defensive, average hitting outfielders who each had one season completely out of sync with all the rest. -- Corby Gilmore corby@ncf.ca
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Dvd Avins 3 March 2005 06:42:05 [ permanent link ]
	Corby Gilmore wrote: As for Roger Maris, check out his stats for 1961. That, for the most> part, is why he is there. Maris was, effectively, the Brady Anderson of> his day. Both were good defensive, average hitting outfielders who each had> one season completely out of sync with all the rest. While I agree with you, the writers of the time thought highly enough of him to award him the MVP the year before he hit 61. Personally, I think they were just tired of giving it to Mantle and wanted to find another Yankee. But 2 consecutive MVPs is notable, whether they were deserved or not. He was also a regular (and defensive star, I think) on the Cardinals' championship team of 1967.
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Guest 3 March 2005 06:50:32 [ permanent link ]
	David The Nationals Fan <GoNats@nul.dev> wrote: : Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... no one put : into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number of votes. : Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would never put : anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others who feel : the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its two : efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber player, : isn't it time to disband this committee. No, I don't think so. Both Santo and Hodges got closer this time, which isn't a surprise; the previous election should have, and apparently did, serve to focus the voters on the leading candidates. The point of any second chance committee, AFAIK, should be to catch guys who fell through the cracks the first time. I think it will function that way for fairly recent players, but since it's possible that no "true" HOFers make it to that stage, it isn't unreasonable for a second-chance mechanism to pass entirely. The biggest problem with this mechanism is that it has an overwhelming bias in favor of fairly recent players. Given that older players have already had their (second) chance, that doesn't seem totally awful to me, although since players from the early days of MLB had no first chance, they wind up shortchanged. Whether we should care about guys who have been dead for a century getting a raw deal or not is a question that divides people, of course. Anyway, I think Santo will go in soon. JHB
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Realto Margarino 3 March 2005 14:04:44 [ permanent link ]
	Corby Gilmore <ai750@freenet.carleton.ca> trolled: As for Roger Maris, check out his stats for 1961. That, for the> most part, is why he is there. Maris was, effectively, the> Brady Anderson of his day. Both were good defensive, average> hitting outfielders who each had one season completely out of> sync with all the rest. Of course Maris won 2 MVPs in his one good season. Anderson won 0. There are lots of players in the HoF with 0 MVPs. cordially, as always, rm
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Wunnuy 3 March 2005 21:03:10 [ permanent link ]
	Corby Gilmore wrote:> "Wunnuy" (wunnuy@netzero.net) writes:> > David The Nationals Fan wrote:> >> Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... one put> >> into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number votes.> >> Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would> > never put> >> anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others feel> >> the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber> > player,> >> isn't it time to disband this committee.> > Pretty much. As long as HOFers have that attitude, the guys on that> > list will never be in.> > With that said, how the hell does Tony Oliva get in third place? He> > shouldn't be in the top ten, especially when Luis Tiant is 8th, which> > is ABSURD. And how does Roger Maris even get on the list?> Oliva is a 3-time AL batting champion, including 1964, his rookie year.> He has a lifetime average of .304. His numbers would have been more> impressive if not for the knee injuries that effectively ruined his career> in 1971. As it is, I can understand his being considered.> As for Roger Maris, check out his stats for 1961. That, for the most> part, is why he is there. Maris was, effectively, the Brady Anderson his day. Both were good defensive, average hitting outfielders who each had> one season completely out of sync with all the rest.> --> No, he's not the Brady Anderson. He was a better hitter than Anderson, in fact, Maris won two MVPs and those two years are why he's on the ballot. Maris is the Dale Murphy of his day. Oliva had 2 200 hit seasons, only scored more than 100 runs twice, only had two seasons with more than 100 rbis and doesn't even have 1000 runs scored or 1000 rbis and this is a guy in an offensive position. A good player, but no HOFer. His similar batters comparison in the baseball-reference site doesn't have him comparible to any modern day HOFers and the only HOFer he is comparible to is a guy who played at the beginning of the last century.
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Wunnuy 3 March 2005 21:05:43 [ permanent link ]
	jhb@socrates.Berkeley.EDU wrote:> The biggest problem with this mechanism is that it has an overwhelming> bias in favor of fairly recent players. Given that older players have> already had their (second) chance, that doesn't seem totally awful to me,> although since players from the early days of MLB had no first chance,> they wind up shortchanged. Whether we should care about guys who have> been dead for a century getting a raw deal or not is a question that> divides people, of course.> Anyway, I think Santo will go in soon.> JHB I don't know, if there are guys who don't think he belongs in now, what will change over the years, especially as younger players get elected who have no idea who Ron Santo is? Santo should have been in a long time ago, nothing has changed since, I think his chances get slimmer and slimmer. But hey, if it means very-unworthy candidates like Oliva, Maris, and other good but not great guys get in, than so be it.
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Bob-Nob 3 March 2005 21:44:31 [ permanent link ]
	Wunnuy venit, vidit, et dixit:> Corby Gilmore wrote:>> "Wunnuy" (wunnuy@netzero.net) writes: <snip> And how does Roger Maris even get on the list? <snip> As for Roger Maris, check out his stats for 1961. That, for the>> most part, is why he is there. Maris was, effectively, the Brady>> Anderson of his day. Both were good defensive, average hitting>> outfielders who each had one season completely out of sync with>> all the rest. No, he's not the Brady Anderson. He was a better hitter than Anderson, Maris 127 OPS+, 1463 GP Anderson 108 OPS+, 1834 GP Yeah, Maris was clearly a bit better than Anderson. Maris wasn't just a great hitter in 1961. His 1960 was also better than Anderson's best season. His 1963 was better than all but one of Brady Anderson's seasons. And so forth... OPS+s RM: 167, 161, 146, 127, 127, 126, 123, 116, 106, 105, 101, 97 BA: 157, 128, 128, 125, 109, 107, 106, 103, 96, 88, 83, 82, 69, 57, 56 in fact, Maris won two MVPs and those two years are why he's on the> ballot. Maris is the Dale Murphy of his day. Well, I'm not sure that's a great comparison either, though. Murphy stayed relatively healthy and then just fell off the map. Maris continued to have value as a hitter but, for whatever reason, only had 3 seasons in which he played 150+ games, 4 seasons of 140+ games, 5 seasons of 130+ games. This is a guy who just couldn't stay healthy. Looking down Maris's comp list, here are the ones that seem to come closest to Maris, in terms of shape of career (later players sometimes have similar numbers, but clearly weren't as good when era is taken into account): (OPS+ - 100): Maris: 67, 61, 46, 27, 27, 26, 23, 16, 06, 05, 01, -3: 1463 GP, 127 OPS+ Allison: 63, 51, 35, 31, 30, 22, 19, 12, 12, 11, 08: 1541 GP, 127 OPS+ Eric Davis might have been a good comp, but the poor guy had 9 seasons in which he played fewer than 100 games. Here's a fun comp... (OPS+ - 100): Maris: 67, 61, 46, 27, 27, 26, 23, 16, 06, 05, 01, -3: 1463 GP, 127 OPS+ Tartabull: 71, 53, 45, 42, 32, 28, 28, 24, 15, 11, -11: 1406 GP, 133 OPS+ Who'da thunk it: Danny Tartabull was Roger Maris, minus the hardware? Catch you later. --Robert Machemer -- Robert Paul Aubrey Machemer \| "For each time he falls, he shall Amherst College, Math & Classics \| rise again, and woe to the wicked!" IF1, IF3, IF9: best films, cast \| --Don Quixote (Man of La Mancha) (What are YOU doing this weekend? See IF12 on May 23rd, 2004)
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Mpoconnor7@Aol.Com 4 March 2005 06:44:53 [ permanent link ]
	I don't understand why Joe Torre didn't get voted in by the VC; perhaps they're waiting for his managerial career to end before voting him in. He was an borderline HOFer as a player, and as a manager a strong HOF case can be made for him even if he had never played a game based on the four WS titles and 6 AL Pennants in eight years.
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Wunnuy 5 March 2005 22:11:25 [ permanent link ]
	mpoconnor7@aol.com wrote:> I don't understand why Joe Torre didn't get voted in by the VC; perhaps> they're waiting for his managerial career to end before voting him in.> He was an borderline HOFer as a player, and as a manager a strong HOF> case can be made for him even if he had never played a game based on> the four WS titles and 6 AL Pennants in eight years. Torre is not a HOFer. As a manager, yeah, but since he's still active as a manager, he will not be voted in. Even he admits it. He said a couple days ago "if I wasn't standing here in this uniform today, we wouldn't have having this conversation." When he retires, he'll get in as a manager.
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Laura Bush murdered her boy friend 7 March 2005 01:59:53 [ permanent link ]
	David The Nationals Fan wrote:> Veterans Committee HOF votes have come out. Shock and horror... no one put> into the HOF this time. Hodges and Santo both had the same number of votes.> Since the Committee includes one player who has said that he would never put> anyone in the HOF since it would "diminish" him and likely others who feel> the same way, and since it hasn't put anyone in in either of its two> efforts, and since Santo is clearly, without question, a HOF caliber player,> isn't it time to disband this committee. Hodges stats are pretty good esp for a guy who missed THREE years due to the war. Plus he was a very good manager. Of course, he didn't manage long since he died at 47, but he took two doormat clubs, the senators and the mets, and made the senators respectable and the mets WS winners.
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Roger Moore 7 March 2005 04:43:15 [ permanent link ]
	"Laura Bush murdered her boy friend" <xeton2001@yahoo.com> writes: Hodges stats are pretty good esp for a guy who missed THREE years due>to the war. That's a rather dubious claim. Hodges got a cup of coffee in 1943, when he was 19 and in his first season in pro ball. There's no particular reason to think that he would have been a regular player in 1944 or 1945, given that he didn't establish himself as a good major league hitter until 1949. -- Roger Moore \| Master of Meaningless Trivia \| (raj@alumni.caltech.edu) I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
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GYXU > Baseball > Santo Screwed Again 3 March 2005 21:44:31

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Santo Screwed Again

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